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Post by Orac on Sept 24, 2023 16:46:18 GMT
Not getting your point there, Z. This works in favor of what i'm saying. Imagine you were this supplier and someone approached you and offered to buy all your free electricity. The electricity can't be really free to anyone. I think the confusion was my start point of free electricity. It was a bid to be clear that's not working. So, the build and maintenance costs are pretty much the same whether the wind farm provides electricity during the day or both day and night. If you've covered your costs selling power during the day, then effectively anything you sell at night is cost free. Before I continue, do you get this and agree? There are no extra costs associated with its provision...sure. Saying it is cost free is a bit deceptive. What you really mean is that the cost is unavoidable for you. |
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Post by Bentley on Sept 24, 2023 16:48:48 GMT
Nothing is free. Either you or someone else will pay a premium for it later.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 24, 2023 16:48:55 GMT
Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price. No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 18:03:30 GMT
I am not sure that I could find one Zany but I know it is true as a neighbour in a nearby rented property took them up on their offer just after the pandemic.
EDIT.......
I just got this from the lady in question. Its the email that Octopusy sent out to their clients. She took their offer but had to pay £35 back...
Hi XXX,
I’ve processed your request for **£25 discretionary credit, and I’ve also added some links at the bottom of this email with information on longer term financial assistance. This discretionary credit is a short term solution to keep you on supply, but please take a look at the information below for more long term support.
The message with the credit on is available at the shop below. Please note if you have any debt on the OWED screen or screen 27, some of the credit may go towards clearing it.
XXXXXXX
To get this message onto your electricity card, you'll need to go to the shop and make a transaction. For Electricity, you just need to do a top up. The message is downloaded in the background of the transaction.
Thanks Jonsky. I'll investigate further. I did some work with citizen advice some years back where banks were doing something similar to what you describe. Offering people credit assistance in return for a membership with a cost of £35.00. Most people took the offer as the alternative was accounts closed and summons. CAB got it stopped as its extortion. I am not sure if it is still relevant but at one time customers who paid by direct debit could puchase energy cheaper than those who paid as you go. I know off watt declared it was unfair but not sure if it is in still in use. Most landlords have pay as you go meters installed for obvious reasons as many tenants left the lanlords with a huge backlog of unpaid energy bills. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 18:10:42 GMT
Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price. No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. 90% of offshore wind turbines are not fit for purpose any longer as the blades have been eroded by sand sea and air. The cost of replacement is horrendouse and the blades are not recyclable so add even more crap to the globe as they are put in landfills. FFS nothing green about wind generators..
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 18:29:24 GMT
I think the confusion was my start point of free electricity. It was a bid to be clear that's not working. So, the build and maintenance costs are pretty much the same whether the wind farm provides electricity during the day or both day and night. If you've covered your costs selling power during the day, then effectively anything you sell at night is cost free. Before I continue, do you get this and agree? There are no extra costs associated with its provision...sure. Saying it is cost free is a bit deceptive. What you really mean is that the cost is unavoidable for you. That's fine. I've been in business so long these terms become ABC. If your central business covers its costs then anything extra is usually listed as profit. You have an office that you pay rent, rates, services, insurance on. And it opens 9-5, 5 days a week to make its profit. If someone asks to rent the space during the evenings, you could say they are offsetting a cost you can't avoid. But most businesses would consider the extra as pure profit. Moving on. So producing energy at night via wind carries no unavoidable costs, whereas producing electricity from gas at night still incurs the cost of buying the gas. That's why offering cheap energy at night works for wind power but not for gas. |
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Post by see2 on Sept 24, 2023 18:32:39 GMT
No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. 90% of offshore wind turbines are not fit for purpose any longer as the blades have been eroded by sand sea and air. The cost of replacement is horrendouse and the blades are not recyclable so add even more crap to the globe as they are put in landfills. FFS nothing green about wind generators..
__"Today WindEurope called for a Europe-wide landfill ban on decommissioned wind turbine blades by 2025. Europe’s wind industry actively commits to re-use, recycle, or recover 100% of decommissioned blades. This comes after several industry-leading companies announced ambitious plans for blade recycling and recovery. A landfill ban would further accelerate the development of sustainable recycling technologies for composite materials. At the Spanish Wind Energy Association (AEE)’s Annual Congress Giles Dickson, CEO of WindEurope, and Juan Virgilio Márquez, General Director of AEE, today called upon the European Commission to propose a Europe-wide ban on landfilling decommissioned wind turbine blades. The ban should enter into force by 2025 and also apply to other large composite components in the nacelles of modern wind turbines. With today’s call, the European wind industry actively commits to re-use, recycle, or recover 100% of decommissioned blades. At the same time the industry commits not to send decommissioned blades from Europe to other countries outside of Europe for landfilling."__ windeurope.org/newsroom/press-releases/wind-industry-calls-for-europe-wide-ban-on-landfilling-turbine-blades/Maintenance is part of just about any progress. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 18:36:49 GMT
Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price. No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. 10 years ago? NOW. It's now cheaper to produce energy from wind than gas. As the government announces its energy security strategy, how might speeding up the change to net zero save us all money? Figures seen by Sky News show that the cost of producing energy from wind will be less than half the cost from gas this year, and could fall to a quarter in 2023. There are environmental benefits to this, but the aim is also to reduce reliance on Russian oil and gas and help tackle soaring energy prices. Rising fuel costs, as well as technological advancements in the wind sector, meant that it became cheaper to produce a unit of energy from a wind farm than a gas-fired power station for the first time in 2021. The way of measuring how expensive it is to produce energy from different sources takes into account all of the different costs involved over the lifetime of a plant - the build, the fuel and the maintenance - and how much energy it can provide over that time. Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price, according to researchers at BloombergNEF. The researchers expect the price of gas to drop slightly next year, so it will be a similar cost to offshore wind again, before rising again through the rest of the decade while wind continues to fall. Gas will remain more expensive than onshore wind throughout. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 18:39:48 GMT
Thanks Jonsky. I'll investigate further. I did some work with citizen advice some years back where banks were doing something similar to what you describe. Offering people credit assistance in return for a membership with a cost of £35.00. Most people took the offer as the alternative was accounts closed and summons. CAB got it stopped as its extortion. I am not sure if it is still relevant but at one time customers who paid by direct debit could puchase energy cheaper than those who paid as you go. I know off watt declared it was unfair but not sure if it is in still in use. Most landlords have pay as you go meters installed for obvious reasons as many tenants left the lanlords with a huge backlog of unpaid energy bills. Sadly its still true today. Same as if you contact your bank to say you're struggling with your mortgage, odds are they will add an admin charge to your monthly bill and put your interest rate up as a high risk borrower. Just the sort of help a struggling customer needs. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 18:46:31 GMT
No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. 90% of offshore wind turbines are not fit for purpose any longer as the blades have been eroded by sand sea and air. The cost of replacement is horrendouse and the blades are not recyclable so add even more crap to the globe as they are put in landfills. FFS nothing green about wind generators..
This bit ^^ is not in the article which is about a decision to make sure all old turbine blades are recycled. Have you a link? |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 18:55:25 GMT
90% of offshore wind turbines are not fit for purpose any longer as the blades have been eroded by sand sea and air. The cost of replacement is horrendouse and the blades are not recyclable so add even more crap to the globe as they are put in landfills. FFS nothing green about wind generators..
This bit ^^ is not in the article which is about a decision to make sure all old turbine blades are recycled. Have you a link? It is cost prohibitive only one company has tried and gave it up as a bad job. Even it they were ground down what could you do with it as they are 90% fibreglass which is hamfull when inhaled. You couldn't even make insulation from the residue.
Edit here is a link from 2020..
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 20:09:10 GMT
This bit ^^ is not in the article which is about a decision to make sure all old turbine blades are recycled. Have you a link? It is cost prohibitive only one company has tried and gave it up as a bad job. Even it they were ground down what could you do with it as they are 90% fibreglass which is hamfull when inhaled. You couldn't even make insulation from the residue.
Edit here is a link from 2020..
Ah OK mate I accept the stuff about dumping. It was this claim I questioned 90% of offshore wind turbines are not fit for purpose any longer as the blades have been eroded by sand sea and air.I assumed you meant they were still on turbines and not working. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 24, 2023 21:05:22 GMT
No it is not - the average price for electricity over the last 10 years has been around £50 per megawatt/hour. The last offshore auction failed to receive a single bid at £44. In fact in some ways the dash for renewables is making energy bills more expensive. Renewables still depend heavily subsidies, but also require a large number of gas power stations on standby for when the wind isn’t blowing. But having gas-fired stations on standby to facilitate more renewables is hugely expensive – as the fixed costs of being able to produce energy at short notice must be found from smaller revenues - hence the much higher cost. And thats before we get into the massive costs of expanding the grid to get the power from remote wind farms to where people live. So no - windpower is far from cheap. 10 years ago? NOW. It's now cheaper to produce energy from wind than gas. As the government announces its energy security strategy, how might speeding up the change to net zero save us all money? Figures seen by Sky News show that the cost of producing energy from wind will be less than half the cost from gas this year, and could fall to a quarter in 2023. There are environmental benefits to this, but the aim is also to reduce reliance on Russian oil and gas and help tackle soaring energy prices. Rising fuel costs, as well as technological advancements in the wind sector, meant that it became cheaper to produce a unit of energy from a wind farm than a gas-fired power station for the first time in 2021.The way of measuring how expensive it is to produce energy from different sources takes into account all of the different costs involved over the lifetime of a plant - the build, the fuel and the maintenance - and how much energy it can provide over that time. Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price, according to researchers at BloombergNEF. The researchers expect the price of gas to drop slightly next year, so it will be a similar cost to offshore wind again, before rising again through the rest of the decade while wind continues to fall. Gas will remain more expensive than onshore wind throughout. Yes - analysts do say that wind power is cheaper. the reality is that when the auction was held, no company was willing to bid cheaper rates. You can keep shouting from the rooftops all you like, but the people investing the money know the real cost and they will simply not build wind farms for the money you are saying. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 21:32:17 GMT
10 years ago? NOW. It's now cheaper to produce energy from wind than gas. As the government announces its energy security strategy, how might speeding up the change to net zero save us all money? Figures seen by Sky News show that the cost of producing energy from wind will be less than half the cost from gas this year, and could fall to a quarter in 2023. There are environmental benefits to this, but the aim is also to reduce reliance on Russian oil and gas and help tackle soaring energy prices. Rising fuel costs, as well as technological advancements in the wind sector, meant that it became cheaper to produce a unit of energy from a wind farm than a gas-fired power station for the first time in 2021.The way of measuring how expensive it is to produce energy from different sources takes into account all of the different costs involved over the lifetime of a plant - the build, the fuel and the maintenance - and how much energy it can provide over that time. Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price, according to researchers at BloombergNEF. The researchers expect the price of gas to drop slightly next year, so it will be a similar cost to offshore wind again, before rising again through the rest of the decade while wind continues to fall. Gas will remain more expensive than onshore wind throughout. Yes - analysts do say that wind power is cheaper. the reality is that when the auction was held, no company was willing to bid cheaper rates. You can keep shouting from the rooftops all you like, but the people investing the money know the real cost and they will simply not build wind farms for the money you are saying. There's a hundred reasons why people don't invest. But the cost per MW is as quoted. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 24, 2023 21:47:44 GMT
Yes - analysts do say that wind power is cheaper. the reality is that when the auction was held, no company was willing to bid cheaper rates. You can keep shouting from the rooftops all you like, but the people investing the money know the real cost and they will simply not build wind farms for the money you are saying. There's a hundred reasons why people don't invest. But the cost per MW is as quoted. If you cannot get anyone to invest and supply at that rate, then that rate is obviously not reality. For comparison - Ireland had a successful windfarm auction - at £75 per megawatt hour. The current UK price is £84 which is driven up by the Ukraine war. |
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