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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:04:37 GMT
I acknowledge your point. The difference is that once built the electricity from renewable is as free as the wind. There is no advantage in NOT using the electricity at night as its produced anyway. Unlike Gas or coal where you can scale down production at night to suit demand. Do you get me now? It is fair brilliant zany, but what will you use if the wind don't blow and the sun don't shine? Or black is white gets his meter out again? Well that's the thing, we have found the wind is far more reliable than we thought, especially if you link enough different places together. I agree we would still need occasional backup, but this could now be a less efficient instant energy and still be cheaper. Its not just a one leg plan, its a whole change in the way it works. Even dismissing climate change its still better/ cheaper and does not rely on Russia or Arab states for our energy. Just imagine another war in Russia or the middle east NOT effecting electricity prices. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:07:43 GMT
Nope. Do at least try and keep up. Renewable energy is proving to be cheaper than what we had, so we're adapting to the new technology. Energy from new onshore wind-farms is less than half the price of energy from gas stations that are already built and running. With offshore wind it's less than two-thirds of the price. At the moment renewable is tied to gas price, that has to change. That's an idea, we don't need to. |
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Post by Orac on Sept 24, 2023 11:08:17 GMT
I think that is ignoring my point that the overall price to customers has to cover the overall costs of production. I would say the overall cost of production is pretty fixed in this case. I acknowledge your point. The difference is that once built the electricity from renewable is as free as the wind. There is no advantage in NOT using the electricity at night as its produced anyway. Let me put it in a different way so you can grasp what is being said. If the electricity supplier's fixed costs per day are 100 dollars, the customers have to (somehow) pay 100 dollars a day for their electricity. Do you agree? Here is a test - given the above If you offer electricity for free at 2am - 4am and customers exploit this massively and consequently need far less electricity during the rest of the day - how much do they have to pay you per day? |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 11:12:25 GMT
octopus.energy/power-ups/I have just switched to Octopus energy after along running fight with Shell energy who took over my account with Green. I now get electricity at 7.5p per kWh at night. Obviously I charge my car at night and I'm setting my heat pumps and water to come on for a hour before dawn to take advantage of this cheap electric. But does this hail the return of the night storage radiator? Nope.....Who wants a pile of unregulated bricks in their rooms? |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 11:15:30 GMT
Almost certainly (Supply and demand) what it demonstrates is that we can produce electricity very cheaply using renewable energy so long as people can be persuaded to adjust their behaviour and that this is not just a green dream. I think that is ignoring my point that the overall price to customers has to cover the overall costs of production. I would say the overall cost of production is pretty fixed in this case. They could build a lightbulb that could last forever if they wished. Even the LED bulbs have a short lifespan. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:16:00 GMT
I acknowledge your point. The difference is that once built the electricity from renewable is as free as the wind. There is no advantage in NOT using the electricity at night as its produced anyway. Let me put it in a different way so you can grasp what is being said. If the electricity supplier's fixed costs per day are 100 dollars, the customers have to (somehow) pay 100 dollars a day for their electricity. Do you agree? Here is a test - given the above If you offer electricity for free at 2am - 4am and customers exploit this massively and consequently need far less electricity during the rest of the day - how much do they have to pay you per day? Yes that's obvious. Let me try one on you. If Norway said any gas they supply at night is now free, would electricity prices rise or fall? |
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Post by sheepy on Sept 24, 2023 11:18:14 GMT
Let me put it in a different way so you can grasp what is being said. If the electricity supplier's fixed costs per day are 100 dollars, the customers have to (somehow) pay 100 dollars a day for their electricity. Do you agree? Here is a test - given the above If you offer electricity for free at 2am - 4am and customers exploit this massively and consequently need far less electricity during the rest of the day - how much do they have to pay you per day? Yes that's obvious. Let me try one on you. If Norway said any gas they supply at night is now free, would electricity prices rise or fall? Orac already knew the answer anyway, that you could only avoid it. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:20:50 GMT
I think that is ignoring my point that the overall price to customers has to cover the overall costs of production. I would say the overall cost of production is pretty fixed in this case. They could build a lightbulb that could last forever if they wished. Even the LED bulbs have a short lifespan. Not sure about that. But there comes a balance point between longevity and accidental loss or going out of date/fashion. I remember back in the day fitting a kitchen for a guy who had bright green swirly carpets throughout his home. I made a comment about them and he laughed. "Yep, we bought Axminster carpets as they last forever. And they fucking do!" |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:26:00 GMT
Yes that's obvious. Let me try one on you. If Norway said any gas they supply at night is now free, would electricity prices rise or fall? Orac already knew the answer anyway, that you could only avoid it. Sorry you missed the point. The difference between wind energy and Gas energy is wind is free at night but gas isn't. This adjusts the price overall, day and night in a downward direction. But only if you can persuade people to use some at night. |
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Post by sheepy on Sept 24, 2023 11:28:39 GMT
Orac already knew the answer anyway, that you could only avoid it. Sorry you missed the point. The difference between wind energy and Gas energy is wind is free at night but gas isn't. This adjusts the price overall, day and night in a downward direction. But only if you can persuade people to use some at night. The sun doesn't shine at night, so you are reliant on either Egypt or some other place having spare capacity or the wind blowing somewhere obtainable, it sounds like a pure gimmick for getting you signed up. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 11:31:02 GMT
Orac already knew the answer anyway, that you could only avoid it. Sorry you missed the point. The difference between wind energy and Gas energy is wind is free at night but gas isn't. This adjusts the price overall, day and night in a downward direction. But only if you can persuade people to use some at night. So what would the cut off point be if the new peak periods were in the middle of the night and not mid day? Would we get a reduction for our mid day usage? |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:44:13 GMT
octopus.energy/power-ups/I have just switched to Octopus energy after along running fight with Shell energy who took over my account with Green. I now get electricity at 7.5p per kWh at night. Obviously I charge my car at night and I'm setting my heat pumps and water to come on for a hour before dawn to take advantage of this cheap electric. But does this hail the return of the night storage radiator? Nope.....Who wants a pile of unregulated bricks in their rooms? Modern ones are intelligent. They only charge enough at night to supply demand based on outside temperatures. They control how much heat they release during the day far better than the old vent flap ones used to. I certainly see a future when night electricity is very cheap and people use them to back up daytime usage. |
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Post by zanygame on Sept 24, 2023 11:45:25 GMT
Sorry you missed the point. The difference between wind energy and Gas energy is wind is free at night but gas isn't. This adjusts the price overall, day and night in a downward direction. But only if you can persuade people to use some at night. The sun doesn't shine at night, so you are reliant on either Egypt or some other place having spare capacity or the wind blowing somewhere obtainable, it sounds like a pure gimmick for getting you signed up. But the wind blows and the water flows. |
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Post by sheepy on Sept 24, 2023 11:47:27 GMT
The sun doesn't shine at night, so you are reliant on either Egypt or some other place having spare capacity or the wind blowing somewhere obtainable, it sounds like a pure gimmick for getting you signed up. But the wind blows and the water flows. Good idea I will build a water wheel have free energy and sell you the rest. Modern computer designed water wheels are incredibly efficient. |
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2023 11:48:09 GMT
Nope.....Who wants a pile of unregulated bricks in their rooms? Modern ones are intelligent. They only charge enough at night to supply demand based on outside temperatures. They control how much heat they release during the day far better than the old vent flap ones used to. I certainly see a future when night electricity is very cheap and people use them to back up daytime usage. And they weigh a frigging ton. They don't impress the removal companies and it is usualy cheaper to leave them behind and let the next home owner deal with them. |
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