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Post by zanygame on Nov 1, 2022 7:17:36 GMT
For years now I have been saying the only way to square the circle between the cost of public services was to increase population year on year or accept higher taxes.
Seems the government have finally caught up. There's no more fat to be trimmed, just a hard choice.
Mass immigration.
Tax rises.
Personally I'm glad the government have chosen tax rises.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 1, 2022 7:40:41 GMT
For years now I have been saying the only way to square the circle between the cost of public services was to increase population year on year or accept higher taxes. increasing immigration does not increase per-capita GDP - the same funding pressures remain on public services whatever the level of immigration. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 1, 2022 7:42:20 GMT
I have no idea why you think immigration makes us richer - especially when the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves.
Our problem is very simple. Under the last Labour govt the income tax system became a highly expensive money redistribution system. In other words the govt get no net money from the vastly expensive income tax system. It just takes money from the rich and gives it to the poor. In fact over 50% of the population are now net beneficiaries of the overall tax system. That happened under Gordon Brown and it's getting worse because of immigration from economic migrants who can't support themselves.
Also there are now over 5 million people who are perfectly capable of working who do not work. And they don't work because they've worked out that they can live perfectly well by living off benefits. Benefits were never intended to be a lifestyle choice. They were meant to provide a basic living for people who had no alternative.
We're now in a situation that the top 1% of earners pay 30% of tax. And the top 10% of earners pay over 60% of tax. While most people effectively pay no tax. That has to change.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 1, 2022 7:45:33 GMT
For years now I have been saying the only way to square the circle between the cost of public services was to increase population year on year or accept higher taxes. increasing immigration does not increase per-capita GDP - the same funding pressures remain on public services whatever the level of immigration. We've been through this. It increases tax take on a year on year basis. This years intake of immigrants paying last years tax shortfall with public services constantly playing catch up. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 1, 2022 7:47:10 GMT
I have no idea why you think immigration makes us richer - especially when the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves. Our problem is very simple. Under the last Labour govt the income tax system became a highly expensive money redistribution system. In other words the govt get no net money from the vastly expensive income tax system. It just takes money from the rich and gives it to the poor. In fact over 50% of the population are now net beneficiaries of the overall tax system. That happened under Gordon Brown and it's getting worse because of immigration from economic migrants who can't support themselves. Also there are now over 5 million people who are perfectly capable of working who do not work. And they don't work because they've worked out that they can live perfectly well by living off benefits. Benefits were never intended to be a lifestyle choice. They were meant to provide a basic living for people who had no alternative. We're now in a situation that the top 1% of earners pay 30% of tax. And the top 10% of earners pay over 60% of tax. While most people effectively pay no tax. That has to change. The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 1, 2022 9:07:40 GMT
The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. No that's wrong. Up until we left the EU (and free movement) there was a vast amount of economic immigration from people who could only live by taking "in work benefits" - top ups from the govt. When we left the EU the idea was to change the qualification for entry to have a job with an income that meant that they could support themselves - as most sensible countries do. But this was watered down because so many employers objected. The qualifying amount is about £20k now, which means that most of the immigrants are net beneficiaries of tax. In fact - as I said - most of the WHOLE population are net beneficiaries of the tax system. Your post title says "More tax for everyone". That would be fine if it were true, but it isn't. Most people effectively don't pay any tax. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 1, 2022 9:13:44 GMT
Unfortunately immigration increases the load on public services. So you need more public services to service the immigration.
And the spiral would continue until there's standing room only.
The problem is that public services are woefully inefficient and wasteful. "Mission creep" is a huge issue. (If there's any doubt, just look at how the police have been sidetracked in recent years into all sorts of things that aren't police matters).
We need public services doing what they should and not going off at a tangent.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 1, 2022 11:45:45 GMT
increasing immigration does not increase per-capita GDP - the same funding pressures remain on public services whatever the level of immigration. We've been through this. It increases tax take on a year on year basis. This years intake of immigrants paying last years tax shortfall with public services constantly playing catch up. Tax receipts are a year behind expenditure - so a migrant is putting a demand on public services before he pays any tax (if he ever does) |
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Post by dappy on Nov 1, 2022 12:09:43 GMT
What are you talking about Pacifico.
Anybody employed in the UK pays tax in the year he starts that employment.
From a purely financial point of view, the most beneficial resident of the UK is someone who arrives in the country at around 20 (so no education costs) and leaves at around 50-60 (so no pension costs and normally relatively low healthcare costs). As it happens people coming here to live for a few years for a few years are most likely to fit all or at least some of that profile.
There are other factors though of course and outcome for individuals (and sometimes groups of people) may vary.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 1, 2022 13:04:21 GMT
"From a purely financial point of view, the most beneficial resident of the UK is someone who arrives in the country at around 20 (so no education costs) and leaves at around 50-60 (so no pension costs and normally relatively low healthcare costs)."
And produces few if any dependants.
Re pension costs - as long as the individual pays at least Class 3 NI for a certain number of years (I believe it's 30 for a full pension entitlement) he will be able to draw that pension no matter where he moves to.
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Post by Handyman on Nov 1, 2022 13:05:03 GMT
About 21 million adults in the country do not pay any Income Tax as their income is less than the threshold of £12,500
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Post by dappy on Nov 1, 2022 13:22:27 GMT
"From a purely financial point of view, the most beneficial resident of the UK is someone who arrives in the country at around 20 (so no education costs) and leaves at around 50-60 (so no pension costs and normally relatively low healthcare costs)." And produces few if any dependants. Re pension costs - as long as the individual pays at least Class 3 NI for a certain number of years (I believe it's 30 for a full pension entitlement) he will be able to draw that pension no matter where he moves to. If by dependents, you are talking about children, you have to look at children, whether born to British or overseas passport holders, as individuals in their own right rather than applying their cost and income to their parents. Children born and educated here will be a cost to the state in their early years, then (hopefully) a generator in their working life and then a cost again as they reach more advanced years. Who their parents were or their nationality doesn't affect this. Of course the risk with kids is that the state pays for their education but they more and pay tax overseas during their working years. As far as I know there is no reason to believe this is more likely with children of immigrants than children of parents born here. Pensions for overseas residents is a little more complicated than you suggest but I suggest a detail we dont need to go into here. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 1, 2022 13:56:57 GMT
Economic migrants, who are flooding the country at the moment, are a net loss in so many ways. However my problem with the OP is that it assumes that in order to plug holes in the govt's finance we need to tax more - or allow more immigration. Allowing more immigration is obviously nonsense, especially in a country like England which is the most densely populated in Europe. But an alternative to putting up taxes is to reduce in-work benefits which are just a subsidy to employers. This is what we've been doing for decades now and letting employers make up for the resulting shortage of workers by employing low paid immigrants (mainly from the EU). That's the model that we were trying to get away from by leaving the EU.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 1, 2022 18:07:48 GMT
What are you talking about Pacifico. Anybody employed in the UK pays tax in the year he starts that employment. Tosh. Anyone who files a tax return is always 1 year behind. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 1, 2022 19:57:05 GMT
The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. No that's wrong. Up until we left the EU (and free movement) there was a vast amount of economic immigration from people who could only live by taking "in work benefits" - top ups from the govt. When we left the EU the idea was to change the qualification for entry to have a job with an income that meant that they could support themselves - as most sensible countries do. But this was watered down because so many employers objected. The qualifying amount is about £20k now, which means that most of the immigrants are net beneficiaries of tax. In fact - as I said - most of the WHOLE population are net beneficiaries of the tax system. Your post title says "More tax for everyone". That would be fine if it were true, but it isn't. Most people effectively don't pay any tax. The minimum you are allowed to earn to get a work visa is £25,600 with an income tax of £4,300. Even on 20k it would be £2.5k income tax. And that's just income tax. Who pays what percentage of their income in tax depends what you measure. VAT, Council tax, fuel tax, road tax and a thousand other taxes that are not linked to your ability to pay. Over the years almost every tax rise has been in these areas that favour the rich, but the only calculation you will ever see is what proportion of income tax the rich pay. But income tax only represents 25% of tax revenues. So on that calculation the top 10% of earners pay 65% of 25% of the total tax revenues, that's 16% Now I know that's not accurate, but its more accurate that claiming the rich pay 65% of our taxes If you don't earn enough money to pay income tax, odds are you spend all your income every week and pay vat on all your income. Further there's a reason the richest 10% pay the lions share of tax its because they take the lions share of its money. That's how it works in civilised countries. |
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