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Post by jonksy on Nov 3, 2022 7:26:27 GMT
Many of those coming to study have no intention of returning home. That's our fault. We don't check whose left. I can remember about 20 years ago when the Candian owned huge company of Nortel were based at Paignton Torbay. They chose to move their operation to China and they made the staff at paignton redundent apart from several operatives which were highly paid to remain and train 50 odd Chinese workers who would run their operation in China. Out of those 50 odd Chinese only about 7 or 8 made it back to China and the others remained are now god knows where. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2022 7:40:03 GMT
To conflate those coming to study with those coming to settle just to concoct a point is a bit risible. Many of those coming to study have no intention of returning home. But that is hardly true of most foreign students, and any who do stay will tend to find work. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 7:43:00 GMT
To conflate those coming to study with those coming to settle just to concoct a point is a bit risible. Many of those coming to study have no intention of returning home. We don't really want them to return though. Whilst they are a student they don't pay tax, but once graduating we want them to get high paid jobs to be net contributors. The problem is if they are overstayers. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 3, 2022 8:05:03 GMT
That's our fault. We don't check whose left. I can remember about 20 years ago when the Candian owned huge company of Nortel were based at Paignton Torbay. They chose to move their operation to China and they made the staff at paignton redundent apart from several operatives which were highly paid to remain and train 50 odd Chinese workers who would run their operation in China. Out of those 50 odd Chinese only about 7 or 8 made it back to China and the others remained are now god knows where. Nortel - there is a name from the past. I lost £10k when they went bust, dot-com boom my arse..  |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 3, 2022 8:17:39 GMT
I dont think that "economic migrants" are actually flooding the country at the moment, the European Freedom of Movement principle no longer applies to this country, unfortunately. Not withstanding the Financial Crisis and subsequent recession, our country boomed between 2000 and Brexit, minor industries suddenly flourished, such as the British salad growing industry. Agricultural, food, farming and horticultural businesses flourished and expanded due to an available, ready and willing work force, the European migrants were a nett contributor to the economy, fuelling growth. The SERIOUS labour shortages, particularly in Social Care and the NHS are partly as a direct result of Brexit and the ending of the Free Movement of People. The inflation problem we now have is also partly as a result of businesses having to offer higher wages to attract people into vaccant positions, the result is higher prices, its an economic vicious circle with no real winners, and the end result wont change ... there is still going to be a shortage of labour. If you think that offering £12.00 per hour instead of £10,00 will attract British people into manual, unskilled agricultural jobs, you are deluded, it wont work. Even if it did work, what will it do to prices in the supermarket ?, we are back to the economic vicious circle. A larger pool of available labour, and a huge single market is something we have rejected, the British electorate voted to shoot themselves in the foot. It's you who is deluded. We left the EU - against the wishes of business BTW - because the model of allowing businesses to recruit cheap labour from the EU was depressing wages in many sectors (including Social care). Jobs were being offered at low rates that basically only attracted unskilled foreign labour who could only survive by topping up their wages with in-work benefits (and often free housing). What was effectively happening is that the state was subsidising greedy employers who paid wages that people couldn't live on. The new model denies these employers the option of recruiting from a cheap pool of labour and forces them to pay a reasonable rate. Obviously this will only work if there are people looking for work. But there are 5.3 million on out-of-work benefits - a record number. If they're not looking for work the conclusion must be that benefits are too high. As I said this is obviously the case as people seem to make a career of living on benefits. |
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Post by jonksy on Nov 3, 2022 8:20:43 GMT
I can remember about 20 years ago when the Candian owned huge company of Nortel were based at Paignton Torbay. They chose to move their operation to China and they made the staff at paignton redundent apart from several operatives which were highly paid to remain and train 50 odd Chinese workers who would run their operation in China. Out of those 50 odd Chinese only about 7 or 8 made it back to China and the others remained are now god knows where. Nortel - there is a name from the past. I lost £10k when they went bust, dot-com boom my arse.. I think a great many did my friend paignton the silicon valley of the UK my arse. Still you did get the last laugh mate they never lasted long in China before going tits up. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 3, 2022 8:28:07 GMT
Also there are now over 5 million people who are perfectly capable of working who do not work. And they don't work because they've worked out that they can live perfectly well by living off benefits. Benefits were never intended to be a lifestyle choice. They were meant to provide a basic living for people who had no alternative. You have confused economically inactive with fit and healthy. Not the same, so your point isn't quite right. My point is correct. I'm saying that 5.3 million people are on out-of-work benefits which is an all time record. So obviously benefits have reached the level at which they're a genuine alternative to working for a living. Some (1.7 million) of these people are classified as long-term sick apparently which is another record. No one seems to know why this figure has increased so much. It seems unlikely that they can all be victims of long Covid. It's more likely that people go a taste for doing nothing during the Covid lockdowns. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 8:37:40 GMT
You have confused economically inactive with fit and healthy. Not the same, so your point isn't quite right. My point is correct. I'm saying that 5.3 million people are on out-of-work benefits which is an all time record. So obviously benefits have reached the level at which they're a genuine alternative to working for a living. Some (1.7 million) of these people are classified as long-term sick apparently which is another record. No one seems to know why this figure has increased so much. It seems unlikely that they can all be victims of long Covid. It's more likely that people go a taste for doing nothing during the Covid lockdowns. Incorrect, as economically inactive includes students, who are not on out of work benefits. You said in your original post that these were "fit and ready for work", but you now acknowledge that this includes sick and disabled / terminally ill, so it totally undermines your point. There are some people who lay about, but the numbers are quite small. Have a look for unemployed over 6 months (long term unemployed). It's nowhere near the region of 5M people! 😂 |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 3, 2022 8:40:10 GMT
It's you who is deluded. We left the EU - against the wishes of business BTW - because the model of allowing businesses to recruit cheap labour from the EU was depressing wages in many sectors (including Social care). Jobs were being offered at low rates that basically only attracted unskilled foreign labour who could only survive by topping up their wages with in-work benefits (and often free housing). What was effectively happening is that the state was subsidising greedy employers who paid wages that people couldn't live on. The new model denies these employers the option of recruiting from a cheap pool of labour and forces them to pay a reasonable rate. Obviously this will only work if there are people looking for work. But there are 5.3 million on out-of-work benefits - a record number. If they're not looking for work the conclusion must be that benefits are too high. As I said this is obviously the case as people seem to make a career of living on benefits. Make that 1.7 million. How many people on universal credit are unemployed?
The number of people on Universal Credit who were not working or on low earnings and required to search for work as a condition of their claim ('searching for work') has fallen by 560,000 to 1.7 million |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 3, 2022 8:44:28 GMT
Indeed. One of my very best friends is a Latvian national who has been here now for some 13 years or so. She has worked throughout that time, not always in well paying jobs, yet has never claimed any welfare benefits during her entire stay here. From what I see of other immigrants - both from inside and outside the EU - this seems to be the norm. That's all very interesting but you make the mistake of taking a specific example of one person and then thinking it's general (the norm). The fact is that the reason that many employers took so many people from the EU (even to the extent of only advertising their jobs in the EU) is that they were offering low wages - wages that were not attractive to indigenous workers. And the lower the wage that you work for the more likely it is that you claim benefits. And, as I've said, the majority of people are net beneficiaries of the state benefit system. So immigrant workers are less likely to pay a net amount of tax. QED. You can try to claim black is white all you like by anecdotal evidence (which may or may not be true) but the facts say that you're wrong. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 3, 2022 8:49:49 GMT
It's you who is deluded. We left the EU - against the wishes of business BTW - because the model of allowing businesses to recruit cheap labour from the EU was depressing wages in many sectors (including Social care). Jobs were being offered at low rates that basically only attracted unskilled foreign labour who could only survive by topping up their wages with in-work benefits (and often free housing). What was effectively happening is that the state was subsidising greedy employers who paid wages that people couldn't live on. The new model denies these employers the option of recruiting from a cheap pool of labour and forces them to pay a reasonable rate. Obviously this will only work if there are people looking for work. But there are 5.3 million on out-of-work benefits - a record number. If they're not looking for work the conclusion must be that benefits are too high. As I said this is obviously the case as people seem to make a career of living on benefits. Make that 1.7 million. How many people on universal credit are unemployed?
The number of people on Universal Credit who were not working or on low earnings and required to search for work as a condition of their claim ('searching for work') has fallen by 560,000 to 1.7 million |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 3, 2022 8:54:51 GMT
My point is correct. I'm saying that 5.3 million people are on out-of-work benefits which is an all time record. So obviously benefits have reached the level at which they're a genuine alternative to working for a living. Some (1.7 million) of these people are classified as long-term sick apparently which is another record. No one seems to know why this figure has increased so much. It seems unlikely that they can all be victims of long Covid. It's more likely that people go a taste for doing nothing during the Covid lockdowns. Incorrect, as economically inactive includes students, who are not on out of work benefits. You said in your original post that these were "fit and ready for work", but you now acknowledge that this includes sick and disabled / terminally ill, so it totally undermines your point. It only undermines my point if you never understood what my point was. Zanygame was trying to say that we have two choices: Raise taxes or cut spending. I was pointing out that we have another option. Basically there are a vast number of people who are on out of work benefits - an all time record, whichever way you look at it. The reason that they don't work is because the state's benefit system is now competing with employment as a lifestyle. So lower these benefits. Simples. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 3, 2022 9:16:38 GMT
Most of them in the inactive numbers are pensioners are you suggesting we cut there Benefits.
And also the inactive numbers are at a all time high again is down to the pensioners
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Post by andrewbrown on Nov 3, 2022 9:17:50 GMT
Incorrect, as economically inactive includes students, who are not on out of work benefits. You said in your original post that these were "fit and ready for work", but you now acknowledge that this includes sick and disabled / terminally ill, so it totally undermines your point. It only undermines my point if you never understood what my point was. Zanygame was trying to say that we have two choices: Raise taxes or cut spending. I was pointing out that we have another option. Basically there are a vast number of people who are on out of work benefits - an all time record, whichever way you look at it. The reason that they don't work is because the state's benefit system is now competing with employment as a lifestyle. So lower these benefits. Simples. I work in benefits and council tax. That's my area of expertise. It sounds to me like you don't really understand what has happened in benefits since 2010. If you think that benefits offers some form of affluent lifestyle, you are very, very wrong. For a start, the average rent shortfall for those on housing benefit is 10%. I'm unsure where you are getting your stats from. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 3, 2022 9:34:25 GMT
I'm saying that 5.3 million people are on out-of-work benefits which is an all time record. So obviously benefits have reached the level at which they're a genuine alternative to working for a living. Some (1.7 million) of these people are classified as long-term sick apparently which is another record. No one seems to know why this figure has increased so much. It seems unlikely that they can all be victims of long Covid. It's more likely that people go a taste for doing nothing during the Covid lockdowns. It's an inference but not an unreasonable one. Perhaps someone has a better explanation for the trend? |
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