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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 2, 2022 7:48:28 GMT
No, you're wrong again. You can get a visa on a minimum pay of £20,480. Read the govt regulations - which is basically the "living wage", just. But the point is that any job opens the door to the lucrative in-work benefits, like housing benefit and tax credits (or whatever they're called now). These are what immigrants really value - they're what makes the UK so attractive. And the NHS of course which is expensive.
And most earners are net beneficiaries of the state. The only migrants who actually contribute to the state coffers come from the richer European countries. The rest are a liability. And of course the thousands who come here illegally probably work in the black economy and pay no tax. But of course they almost certainly get themselves a National Insurance number (of which there are many more than people in the country) in order to claim benefits.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 2, 2022 8:43:26 GMT
No, you're wrong again. You can get a visa on a minimum pay of £20,480. Read the govt regulations - which is basically the "living wage", just. But the point is that any job opens the door to the lucrative in-work benefits, like housing benefit and tax credits (or whatever they're called now). These are what immigrants really value - they're what makes the UK so attractive. And the NHS of course which is expensive. As I stated even on 20.5k you still pay taxes. But your main problem is that your argument relies on every immigrant earning only that very lowest figure. When in fact by definition that is the LOWEST figure. That is just made up by you or the bloggers you read. I do not believe you have any evidence to support such a claim. Immigrants granted visa's have to demonstrate that they do not require state aid to survive. Indeed if you were correct then GDP per capita would have been shrinking every year for the past 30 years. The opposite is true. What? Can I see your evidence that people working in the black market and not paying their tax also have national insurance numbers to claim in work benefits. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:09:21 GMT
We're now in a situation that the top 1% of earners pay 30% of tax. And the top 10% of earners pay over 60% of tax. While most people effectively pay no tax. That has to change. That is - conveniently - with Income Tax alone and ignores all other taxes, including the other de facto income tax known as National Insurance. Most people pay 12.5% NI on their incomes, but the rich only pay 2.5% on most of theirs. And lower earners tend to pay a higher proportion of their income in indirect taxes than higher earners. And local taxation is hugely regressive, with the very richest only paying three times what the very poorest pay. Typically, you only want to change the taxes you perceive to be unfair to the rich, who at least have the virtue of being able to afford it. Nothing to say about all the other taxes that are unfair to the poor. So in view of that, no it does not have to change, and if you try to massively reduce taxes for the rich it will be electorally and politically disastrous - as Truss recently discovered. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:26:08 GMT
I have no idea why you think immigration makes us richer - especially when the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves. Our problem is very simple. Under the last Labour govt the income tax system became a highly expensive money redistribution system. In other words the govt get no net money from the vastly expensive income tax system. It just takes money from the rich and gives it to the poor. In fact over 50% of the population are now net beneficiaries of the overall tax system. That happened under Gordon Brown and it's getting worse because of immigration from economic migrants who can't support themselves. Also there are now over 5 million people who are perfectly capable of working who do not work. And they don't work because they've worked out that they can live perfectly well by living off benefits. Benefits were never intended to be a lifestyle choice. They were meant to provide a basic living for people who had no alternative. We're now in a situation that the top 1% of earners pay 30% of tax. And the top 10% of earners pay over 60% of tax. While most people effectively pay no tax. That has to change. The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. Indeed. One of my very best friends is a Latvian national who has been here now for some 13 years or so. She has worked throughout that time, not always in well paying jobs, yet has never claimed any welfare benefits during her entire stay here. From what I see of other immigrants - both from inside and outside the EU - this seems to be the norm. Asylum seekers don't work simply because they are not allowed to until their claims have been assessed, and only then if actually granted asylum. It would be most unreasonable to criticise them for not working when they are barred from doing so by law. When it comes to those on benefits, including millions of low paid working people, most of them are home grown. Most migrants work and contribute to society without claiming benefits. Sadly, though, large numbers of bottom feeders and knuckle draggers believe in some sort of dystopian Daily Mailesque fairy tale where we are being swamped by millions of people simultaneously stealing all our jobs yet at the same time scrounging all our benefits whilst sat on their arses, living in their free council house and driving the mythical free car they have been given, whilst automatically going to the front of the queue for medical attention. For some reason people like to believe in this fairy tale even though it only induces irrational anger. I guess some people feel an emotional need to be angry about something and find emoting far more satisfying and far less hard work than actually thinking. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:45:37 GMT
The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. Most people effectively don't pay any tax. That is absolute bunkum. Most working people earn more than the 12.5k threshold and thus do pay income taxes and NI. And then of course there is VAT, duties on tobacco, alcohol and fuel, not to mention Council Tax. Take myself as an example. I am not all that well paid, typically about 21k before tax. Yet I pay both NI and Income Tax, pay my Council Tax in full minus the 25% discount for being a single occupant, pay VAT like everyone else, get clobbered with fuel duty as part of my necessary commuting costs, and get heavily taxed on those infrequent occasions when I choose to buy any alcohol. I am not untypical yet am far less than an average earner. I also claim no benefits whatsoever. So quit with this rubbish about most people not paying tax. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 9:51:22 GMT
About 21 million adults in the country do not pay any Income Tax as their income is less than the threshold of £12,500 Even taking your figures at face value - and I would like to see the evidence - that figure would include millions of pensioners, many hundreds of thousands if not millions of students, plus a certain number of people who choose not to work because they are supported by high earning spouses and are thus in no way a burden on the state. Many of those earning less than 12.5k will also be part time workers whose partner is the main bread winner. So you are being disingenuous. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 10:03:08 GMT
Economic migrants, who are flooding the country at the moment, are a net loss in so many ways. However my problem with the OP is that it assumes that in order to plug holes in the govt's finance we need to tax more - or allow more immigration. Allowing more immigration is obviously nonsense, especially in a country like England which is the most densely populated in Europe. But an alternative to putting up taxes is to reduce in-work benefits which are just a subsidy to employers. This is what we've been doing for decades now and letting employers make up for the resulting shortage of workers by employing low paid immigrants (mainly from the EU). That's the model that we were trying to get away from by leaving the EU. Reducing in work benefits would be an attack on the working poor, many of whom are having to use food banks already. This would cause unacceptable levels of mass destitution and homelessness That such benefits are needed is due to two factors. Pay that is far too low. And living costs, particularly rent, that are far too high. Cutting in work benefits and expecting these problems to just go away is both callous and stupid. What needs to be done is action to reduce living costs - by for example capping rents - and action to increase pay, by for example increasing the minimum wage by a substantial amount. Tackle high living costs and low pay directly and the in work benefits bill will automatically fall. |
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Post by Handyman on Nov 2, 2022 10:51:18 GMT
About 21 million adults in the country do not pay any Income Tax as their income is less than the threshold of £12,500 Even taking your figures at face value - and I would like to see the evidence - that figure would include millions of pensioners, many hundreds of thousands if not millions of students, plus a certain number of people who choose not to work because they are supported by high earning spouses and are thus in no way a burden on the state. Many of those earning less than 12.5k will also be part time workers whose partner is the main bread winner. So you are being disingenuous. Disingenuous how kind, you assume wrongly not my figure one that has been in the press recently, I am a pensioner and retired after working and paying income tax on my earnings for over 50 years, I still pay income tax on my earnings, it matters not if you me and they are working full time, part time or not, if your income is not over £12,500 per annum that fact remains, you don't pay income tax on your earnings If you don't work and don't earn anything you don't pay any tax at all, I never mentioned anything about anyone being a burden on the state. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 11:14:59 GMT
Economic migrants, who are flooding the country at the moment, are a net loss in so many ways. However my problem with the OP is that it assumes that in order to plug holes in the govt's finance we need to tax more - or allow more immigration. Allowing more immigration is obviously nonsense, especially in a country like England which is the most densely populated in Europe. But an alternative to putting up taxes is to reduce in-work benefits which are just a subsidy to employers. This is what we've been doing for decades now and letting employers make up for the resulting shortage of workers by employing low paid immigrants (mainly from the EU). That's the model that we were trying to get away from by leaving the EU. I dont think that "economic migrants" are actually flooding the country at the moment, the European Freedom of Movement principle no longer applies to this country, unfortunately. Not withstanding the Financial Crisis and subsequent recession, our country boomed between 2000 and Brexit, minor industries suddenly flourished, such as the British salad growing industry. Agricultural, food, farming and horticultural businesses flourished and expanded due to an available, ready and willing work force, the European migrants were a nett contributor to the economy, fuelling growth. The SERIOUS labour shortages, particularly in Social Care and the NHS are partly as a direct result of Brexit and the ending of the Free Movement of People. The inflation problem we now have is also partly as a result of businesses having to offer higher wages to attract people into vaccant positions, the result is higher prices, its an economic vicious circle with no real winners, and the end result wont change ... there is still going to be a shortage of labour. If you think that offering £12.00 per hour instead of £10,00 will attract British people into manual, unskilled agricultural jobs, you are deluded, it wont work. Even if it did work, what will it do to prices in the supermarket ?, we are back to the economic vicious circle. A larger pool of available labour, and a huge single market is something we have rejected, the British electorate voted to shoot themselves in the foot. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 2, 2022 11:25:59 GMT
My understanding is, unless you earn over the mid thirties £k, you are quite unlikely to be a net contributor to gov. services - i.e. the services you use are unlikely to have less value than the tax you pay.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 11:26:56 GMT
Even taking your figures at face value - and I would like to see the evidence - that figure would include millions of pensioners, many hundreds of thousands if not millions of students, plus a certain number of people who choose not to work because they are supported by high earning spouses and are thus in no way a burden on the state. Many of those earning less than 12.5k will also be part time workers whose partner is the main bread winner. So you are being disingenuous. Disingenuous how kind, you assume wrongly not my figure one that has been in the press recently, I am a pensioner and retired after working and paying income tax on my earnings for over 50 years, I still pay income tax on my earnings, it matters not if you me and they are working full time, part time or not, if your income is not over £12,500 per annum that fact remains, you don't pay income tax on your earnings If you don't work and don't earn anything you don't pay any tax at all, I never mentioned anything about anyone being a burden on the state. The fact that something has been reported in the press recently does not make it true and does not constitute evidence. Large elements of the press are notoriously unreliable sources of information. A link to a reputable source would be more convincing. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 2, 2022 11:32:03 GMT
The reason you have no idea is because you start off believing "the bulk of immigration to the UK is people who can't afford to support themselves." That is wrong. The vast bulk of immigrants are invited here to do tax paying jobs. Indeed. One of my very best friends is a Latvian national who has been here now for some 13 years or so. She has worked throughout that time, not always in well paying jobs, yet has never claimed any welfare benefits during her entire stay here. From what I see of other immigrants - both from inside and outside the EU - this seems to be the norm. Asylum seekers don't work simply because they are not allowed to until their claims have been assessed, and only then if actually granted asylum. It would be most unreasonable to criticise them for not working when they are barred from doing so by law. When it comes to those on benefits, including millions of low paid working people, most of them are home grown. Most migrants work and contribute to society without claiming benefits. Well thats not true - most migrants come in on non-work visas.. Work visas only account for about 30% of immigration into the UK. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2022 11:41:10 GMT
My understanding is, unless you earn over the mid thirties £k, you are quite unlikely to be a net contributor to gov. services - i.e. the services you use are unlikely to have less value than the tax you pay. I would appreciate a source for your understanding so that it is more than mere guesswork. In any case on a case by case basis it would vary enormously. For example, because health issues tend to accumulate and worsen with age, pensioners on average tend to rely on the health service vastly more than young people. Also, anyone with a long term health condition like diabetes is likely to rely on the health service much more than someone without. And of course people with school age children will be having their offspring use the education system whereas those without school age children won't. And how much someone contributes in taxes can vary greatly due to lifestyle choices, eg drinkers and smokers contributing much more than non-smoking teetotallers. So how much people rely on services varies greatly from individual to individual, as can how much people on similar incomes contribute through lifestyle choices. So your one size fits all "understanding" cannot possibly be correct as anything other than a loose average which cannot be precisely calculated. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 2, 2022 11:44:38 GMT
Indeed. One of my very best friends is a Latvian national who has been here now for some 13 years or so. She has worked throughout that time, not always in well paying jobs, yet has never claimed any welfare benefits during her entire stay here. From what I see of other immigrants - both from inside and outside the EU - this seems to be the norm. Asylum seekers don't work simply because they are not allowed to until their claims have been assessed, and only then if actually granted asylum. It would be most unreasonable to criticise them for not working when they are barred from doing so by law. When it comes to those on benefits, including millions of low paid working people, most of them are home grown. Most migrants work and contribute to society without claiming benefits. Well thats not true - most migrants come in on non-work visas.. Work visas only account for about 30% of immigration into the UK. Oh please. We are talking about those who come to live and work here, not students and holiday makers. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 2, 2022 11:51:16 GMT
My understanding is, unless you earn over the mid thirties £k, you are quite unlikely to be a net contributor to gov. services - i.e. the services you use are unlikely to have less value than the tax you pay. That doesn't sound unreasonable. We live in a country with a huge wealth gap, where each year more of the money is taken by less of the people. For me the only logical outcome is that the same must apply to taxation. More of the tax taken from less of the people. Anything else invites the breakdown of society and chaos. At the moment we are thrashing about blaming the lazy, the migrants, the EU, the World. Anything but the actual truth. That truth is, Automation in all its forms is reducing the skilled workforce year on year, leaving only less skilled lower paid jobs. At the same time such automation is increasing the income of those who no longer need to find and bid for skilled people. What do we do? |
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