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Post by patman post on Jul 10, 2023 12:12:32 GMT
13 Feb 2023 — The United Kingdom is home to 8,365 operational petrol stations and those under development. The UK is among the leading ten European countries by number of petrol stations, while Italy ranks first with over 20,000 service stations.
Also, many EVs charge at home and/or at work...
That is ok if you have off road parking and have your own charger installed , but what about people who have to park in the street, or live in tower blocks there is no way Councils would allow cables all over the pavements trip hazards the price of an EV Vehicle is enough to out me off, they are very heavy
* EV Charging Hubs - located in local authority and private car parks, such as Park and Charge
* Pavement Gullies – to safely run EV cables through pavements from wall-mounted home chargers to kerbside. Currently being trialled and not publicly available until 2023 – please register your interest at www.gul-e.co.uk/.
* Lamp Column Chargers - EV chargers embedded into existing kerbside lampposts
* On-Street Chargers (such as bollard chargers) where other options are not suitable.www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/environment-and-planning/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles#:~:text=OxGul-e%20is%20testing%20a%20low-tech%20solution%20that%20allows,wall-mounted%20charger%20and%20an%20EV%20at%20the%20kerbside. Plenty of street charging facilities are being installed around Hackney using street lampposts and dedicated charging bollards. The council is not currently in favour of homeowners running any electric cables across pavements for any purpose - though it still happens. But Hackney is penalising ICE vehicles with higher resident parking charges than for low polluting models. Therefore, logically, there should eventually be easier charging for residents… PS — evolutionsolutions.co.uk/cable-gully-ev-solution/ |
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Post by Handyman on Jul 10, 2023 13:06:18 GMT
That is ok if you have off road parking and have your own charger installed , but what about people who have to park in the street, or live in tower blocks there is no way Councils would allow cables all over the pavements trip hazards the price of an EV Vehicle is enough to out me off, they are very heavy
* EV Charging Hubs - located in local authority and private car parks, such as Park and Charge
* Pavement Gullies – to safely run EV cables through pavements from wall-mounted home chargers to kerbside. Currently being trialled and not publicly available until 2023 – please register your interest at www.gul-e.co.uk/.
* Lamp Column Chargers - EV chargers embedded into existing kerbside lampposts
* On-Street Chargers (such as bollard chargers) where other options are not suitable.www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/environment-and-planning/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles#:~:text=OxGul-e%20is%20testing%20a%20low-tech%20solution%20that%20allows,wall-mounted%20charger%20and%20an%20EV%20at%20the%20kerbside. Plenty of street charging facilities are being installed around Hackney using street lampposts and dedicated charging bollards. The council is not currently in favour of homeowners running any electric cables across pavements for any purpose - though it still happens. But Hackney is penalising ICE vehicles with higher resident parking charges than for low polluting models. Therefore, logically, there should eventually be easier charging for residents… PS — evolutionsolutions.co.uk/cable-gully-ev-solution/So you are ok then, what about the millions of people who don't have any charging points available to them so far and may not for many years, as for running cables being across the pavement or highway , the Regulations state you cannot put anything on the public highway or pavement without approval of you local Council, for public safety trip hazards According Internet depending what electric vehicle you have and its battery size it can take between one and 12 hours to charge up |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 10, 2023 13:14:27 GMT
13 Feb 2023 — The United Kingdom is home to 8,365 operational petrol stations and those under development. The UK is among the leading ten European countries by number of petrol stations, while Italy ranks first with over 20,000 service stations.
Also, many EVs charge at home and/or at work...
That is ok if you have off road parking and have your own charger installed , but what about people who have to park in the street, or live in tower blocks there is no way Councils would allow cables all over the pavements trip hazards the price of an EV Vehicle is enough to out me off, they are very heavyThat's an important point. In our motoring history it was Lotus that came up with the genius idea that it was really power to weight ratio and corners do not like a lot of weight. All the competition were like 'biggest engine they could find'. Lotus just won all the races until someone noticed what they were up to and now everyone does what they do. So there you go - another Brit first in the history of engineering. It was a time when we were doing OK economically. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 10, 2023 13:21:22 GMT
The cost of electricity at these stations is double the cost of petrol for the same distance. I’ve not seen any calculations coming up with anything but how less expensive EVs are to run than ICE powered vehicles… They used to be about 1/3rd the price of petrol/diesel cars to run (from a fuel perspective), but things have changed because of the huge increase in the cost of electricity. It's now about the same cost to run a petrol car as to run a BEV - if you charge up at home. It's easy to calculate by looking at the cost of your electricity per kWh and the fact that the average "mpg" of a BEV is about 3 miles per kWh. Some do more, but very few. A mid range Audi is more like 2.5 miles per kWh. Of course if you charge at a public charger it's a lot more for a kWh than from your domestic supply. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 10, 2023 14:12:56 GMT
I’ve not seen any calculations coming up with anything but how less expensive EVs are to run than ICE powered vehicles… Well, i did provide a few based on my suzuki diesel But to update it, my recently acquired top of the range 65 plated but Clean Air Zone exempt Dacia Duster Laureate 4WD does 52mpg from here to Swanage and 42mpg round Newport. Lets take the lower figure and cost in the diesel at todays price in Sainsbury's 139.9p/l. With 4.54 litres to a gallon thats 15p per mile of supremely comfortable heated and demisted travel and it can do almost 500 of them on one tank The Nissan leaf managed 3.1 miles per kilowatt on a very good day on a flat road with no heating lighting demisters etc With Lidl charging 29p to put one unit in, it does do rather better at 9.35p. But using any heating in the car or running the demister snd you can kiss bye bye to a quarter of that so we are down to 2.4 miles for your 29p so 12p a mile At home my Octopus tarriff was rather more than 29p/kwh But Costa, Mcdonalds, the NHS and a couple of hotels round here charge you the same as the M4 service stations. 65p per kwH. Over 21p a mile. And even my grand daughter’s schoolfriend’s dad has to charge up his TESLA at one of those to get back from hus caravan in Budleigh Salterton because there are sod all WORKING chargers between the exeter services and there. Yes and this is what he is talking about, the motorway charging points which you need for long distance commutes. If you have not watched the video you also aught to know it is claimed on average a car has 180m range, but in practice reports are consistently estimating around the 130m to 140m range for a stated 180m. This is the peril of the British consumer market. The headline claims make it look like a good deal, but as consumers find the truth the value adjusts accordingly. Bankers refer to the phenomenon as a market distortion followed by a market correction, explaining the whopping difference between sale price and corrected price with accurate knowledge of the market, one of the prerequisites of a free market as seen in Economics 101, which our MPs have never read!
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Post by patman post on Jul 10, 2023 14:26:24 GMT
Around 30-40% of Oxfordshire residents may struggle to install home chargers because they don’t have a suitable parking space off the highway. The Oxfordshire Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Strategy (pdf format, 4Mb) lists solutions that the councils are setting up or testing for residents in this situation. These include:
* EV Charging Hubs - located in local authority and private car parks, such as Park and Charge
* Pavement Gullies – to safely run EV cables through pavements from wall-mounted home chargers to kerbside. Currently being trialled and not publicly available until 2023 – please register your interest at www.gul-e.co.uk/.
* Lamp Column Chargers - EV chargers embedded into existing kerbside lampposts
* On-Street Chargers (such as bollard chargers) where other options are not suitable.www.oxfordshire.gov.uk/residents/environment-and-planning/energy-and-climate-change/electric-vehicles#:~:text=OxGul-e%20is%20testing%20a%20low-tech%20solution%20that%20allows,wall-mounted%20charger%20and%20an%20EV%20at%20the%20kerbside. Plenty of street charging facilities are being installed around Hackney using street lampposts and dedicated charging bollards. The council is not currently in favour of homeowners running any electric cables across pavements for any purpose - though it still happens. But Hackney is penalising ICE vehicles with higher resident parking charges than for low polluting models. Therefore, logically, there should eventually be easier charging for residents… PS — evolutionsolutions.co.uk/cable-gully-ev-solution/ So you are ok then, what about the millions of people who don't have any charging points available to them so far and may not for many years, as for running cables being across the pavement or highway , the Regulations state you cannot put anything on the public highway or pavement without approval of you local Council, for public safety trip hazards According Internet depending what electric vehicle you have and its battery size it can take between one and 12 hours to charge up You appear to assume that every parked EV needs to charge. I've been looking at getting and EV, and those I've been looking at appear to have ranges of between 250 to over 300 miles. That would normally do me for a week to 10 days — so once a week charge for me.
Mrs gets 30 miles per charge out of her PHEV which more than covers her daily requirement (plus she can charge up from the onboard engine — but she doesn't often enough, as the indicator keeps telling her to top up with at least 15 ltr because the fuel is getting old!!!). She often does what she shouldn't do and run a cable under a cable cover like most neighbours do when non-EVs hog the charging spaces...
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 10, 2023 14:59:17 GMT
I’ve not seen any calculations coming up with anything but how less expensive EVs are to run than ICE powered vehicles… They used to be about 1/3rd the price of petrol/diesel cars to run (from a fuel perspective), but things have changed because of the huge increase in the cost of electricity. It's now about the same cost to run a petrol car as to run a BEV - if you charge up at home. It's easy to calculate by looking at the cost of your electricity per kWh and the fact that the average "mpg" of a BEV is about 3 miles per kWh. Some do more, but very few. A mid range Audi is more like 2.5 miles per kWh. Of course if you charge at a public charger it's a lot more for a kWh than from your domestic supply. Your figurers and claims are both consistent with John's and the reports in the video. The rule seems to be same price from home and supermarkets that want your grocery business and double on motorways. The motorway cowboys are doing the classic pricing themselves out ft he market. You can only take the piss for so long in business. You get s bit of leeway and benefit of doubt, and after that you experience hostility and wish to punish the industry by the consumer. The consumer is bigger than you! |
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Post by Handyman on Jul 10, 2023 15:59:18 GMT
So you are ok then, what about the millions of people who don't have any charging points available to them so far and may not for many years, as for running cables being across the pavement or highway , the Regulations state you cannot put anything on the public highway or pavement without approval of you local Council, for public safety trip hazards According Internet depending what electric vehicle you have and its battery size it can take between one and 12 hours to charge up You appear to assume that every parked EV needs to charge. I've been looking at getting and EV, and those I've been looking at appear to have ranges of between 250 to over 300 miles. That would normally do me for a week to 10 days — so once a week charge for me.
Mrs gets 30 miles per charge out of her PHEV which more than covers her daily requirement (plus she can charge up from the onboard engine — but she doesn't often enough, as the indicator keeps telling her to top up with at least 15 ltr because the fuel is getting old!!!). She often does what she shouldn't do and run a cable under a cable cover like most neighbours do when non-EVs hog the charging spaces...
No you are assuming wrongly I made no mention whatsoever about parked cars on charge, I do know what a Hybrid is as well, another wrong assumption |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 11, 2023 5:40:01 GMT
To get a 300 mile range you need, at minimum, a 100 kWh battery - and you need to run it from fully charged to flat. Even then it'll have to be a small car (like Mini) and the conditions will have to be favourable i.e. warm, not too hilly and not driving too fast. There is NO BEV that has a genuine 300 mile range - not even close.
They tested a Mini EV in the USA by charging it up fully and running it until it actually stopped. It managed exactly 100 miles (from a 32 kWh battery). And this was keeping to all limits and never going over 55mph. The claimed figures for a Mini EV are 140 miles.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 10:16:23 GMT
In the UK last year there were about 1,600,000 new vehicle sales, of which only 16% (1 in 6) were BEVs.
5 out of 6 people are NOT buying EVs, and there is a reason for that. I am sure that each individual buyer must consider the pros and cons very carefully as it is most people's second most expensive purchase after their house.
That consideration includes range, cost, convenience, and the use that individual is making of their own car in their circumstances.
In 5 out of 6 cases, after consideration, non BEVs win. It says a lot.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 11, 2023 10:48:22 GMT
To get a 300 mile range you need, at minimum, a 100 kWh battery - and you need to run it from fully charged to flat. Even then it'll have to be a small car (like Mini) and the conditions will have to be favourable i.e. warm, not too hilly and not driving too fast. There is NO BEV that has a genuine 300 mile range - not even close. They tested a Mini EV in the USA by charging it up fully and running it until it actually stopped. It managed exactly 100 miles (from a 32 kWh battery). And this was keeping to all limits and never going over 55mph. The claimed figures for a Mini EV are 140 miles. Numerous auto magazines in the UK and on the continent have road-tested the Tesla Models 3 and Y (the latter was the world's best-selling car in Q1/23) and confirmed a real-world range of over 300 miles (500 km) with the 80.5 kWh battery.
The Model Y weighs 2000 Kg btw, the Mini EV 1440. WLTP ranges are 533 km and 233 km respectively.
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 12, 2023 0:49:10 GMT
We have two EVs, the wife has a Merc which is nearly a year old, and i've got a Mini which is 3 months old.
The OP makes some big assumptions, the main one being people BUY the car and not LEASE it.
My wife pays £320 per month for a £55,000 top spec Merc via salary sacrifice. There was no deposit and the price includes everything except fuel. Even with the energy rises it is still cheaper to fuel than an ICE.
Range is NEVER an issue, for one simple reason, not even truckers drive 200 miles without a piss, and the wife needs a coffee every 100-150 miles anyway. My Mini has a real range of around 120 miles, but even that isn't a problem because I never go more than 25 miles in it. EVs are awesome to drive, they accelerate like an F1 car, and no gears / one pedal driving make them a joy in urban areas.
We have just been on a Med Cruise from Southampton, which is 250 miles away. Going down we stopped once, 150 miles into the trip at a charging hub with 20+ fast charging points. You can set them to cut off at 80% which takes 15-20 mins from 20%... which is way quicker than the time needed for a piss and a brew. The hotel in Southampton had FREE charging, so just did a cheeky 15 min charge on the way back up while the wife grabbed a Starbucks. In total we spent around £50 (including home charge) to do the 500 mile round journey, averaging 70mph and with the aircon on.
Obviously, EVs are not for everyone. If you cannot have a charge point at home, or at work then you might as well get a an ICE or Hybrid.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 12, 2023 1:02:20 GMT
We have two EVs, the wife has a Merc which is nearly a year old, and i've got a Mini which is 3 months old. The OP makes some big assumptions, the main one being people BUY the car and not LEASE it. My wife pays £320 per month for a £55,000 top spec Merc via salary sacrifice. There was no deposit and the price includes everything except fuel. Even with the energy rises it is still cheaper to fuel than an ICE. Range is NEVER an issue, for one simple reason, not even truckers drive 200 miles without a piss, and the wife needs a coffee every 100-150 miles anyway. My Mini has a real range of around 120 miles, but even that isn't a problem because I never go more than 25 miles in it. EVs are awesome to drive, they accelerate like an F1 car, and no gears / one pedal driving make them a joy in urban areas. We have just been on a Med Cruise from Southampton, which is 250 miles away. Going down we stopped once, 150 miles into the trip at a charging hub with 20+ fast charging points. You can set them to cut off at 80% which takes 15-20 mins from 20%... which is way quicker than the time needed for a piss and a brew. The hotel in Southampton had FREE charging, so just did a cheeky 15 min charge on the way back up while the wife grabbed a Starbucks. In total we spent around £50 (including home charge) to do the 500 mile round journey, averaging 70mph and with the aircon on. Obviously, EVs are not for everyone. If you cannot have a charge point at home, or at work then you might as well get a an ICE or Hybrid. They must be making a loss on that Merc. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 12, 2023 6:41:11 GMT
Some of the depreciation on EV's is astronomical - actual running costs might be cheap (if you can stick to cheap charging) but the financial hit you take on the value of the, already massively overpriced, car is ridiculous.. Depreciation of over 50% in one year is criminal..  |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 12, 2023 7:36:00 GMT
To get a 300 mile range you need, at minimum, a 100 kWh battery - and you need to run it from fully charged to flat. Even then it'll have to be a small car (like Mini) and the conditions will have to be favourable i.e. warm, not too hilly and not driving too fast. There is NO BEV that has a genuine 300 mile range - not even close. They tested a Mini EV in the USA by charging it up fully and running it until it actually stopped. It managed exactly 100 miles (from a 32 kWh battery). And this was keeping to all limits and never going over 55mph. The claimed figures for a Mini EV are 140 miles. Numerous auto magazines in the UK and on the continent have road-tested the Tesla Models 3 and Y (the latter was the world's best-selling car in Q1/23) and confirmed a real-world range of over 300 miles (500 km) with the 80.5 kWh battery.
The Model Y weighs 2000 Kg btw, the Mini EV 1440. WLTP ranges are 533 km and 233 km respectively.
The Tesla model 3 long range claims a range of 374 miles. CAR magazine do long term tests of various cars and do actual real-world range tests - with motorway, several passengers and heaters on etc - but they haven't done one on the model 3. They did the model S, which had a claimed range of 270 miles - but which they said had a real-world range of 200 miles. And that's actually closer to the claimed figures than most manufacturers get. The WLTP figures are very strange. They're not based on driving the car from a fully charged battery until it's flat. They put the car through their standard test and then check how much energy the car uses - then they calculate from the claimed capacity of the battery what the range is. They don't say whether they load the car or have the heater on, but the test doesn't use the full power that these cars have and doesn't use high speeds. I know that the figures that they achieve for hybrids are total fiction, e.g. over 200 mpg for a Golf hybrid when the real-world figure is 45mpg. All I can say is that the real world range figures for BEVs are 20-30% lower than the manufacturers claims and the WLTP figures are generally meaningless. |
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