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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2024 20:02:34 GMT
The UK has been obsessed with ( sometimes useless ) degrees instead of vocational skills. We need plumbers, engineers , electricians, technicians etc instead of sending children to marxist Madrasas and saddling them with debt . An educated ( not indoctrinated) and skilled work force would allow us to make stuff and build stuff . That would be a start to closing the wealth gap. Every now and then Bentley, we agree completely.  For a generation our school kids were told study hard and you can be anything you want. Not a plasterer, but a rockband, not a retail manager, but a fashion designer. Only very recently have I heard someone say you should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the talent. Lets make the skills something to be proud of. I trained as a cabinet maker and was very proud. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 23, 2024 20:08:54 GMT
Currently the UK has 3.2m on sickness benefit, up 1m in just five years. Yesterday, the DWP said we're on course to hit 4m... in four years. So are ever more generous welfare payments affordable given the lack of growth in the economy and possible stagflation after the budget?. Countries across Europe are struggling with similar problems so perhaps the all-encompassing welfare state was simply a post-war glitch and normal service will be resumed where people have to work to support themselves and their families - as was the norm thoughout history. while there certainly is a urgent need to drive people to work ;.the Elephant in the room is state pension this is a old report from 2021 this is the reason i belief state pension should be means tested The UK government's pension liabilities have risen 22 per cent in three years, raising questions about the sustainability of public pension schemes. Article continues after advert According to figures from the Office for National Statistics, published yesterday (February 8), the government’s pension liabilities had surged by 22 per cent between 2015 and 2018, to £6.4tn. State pension liabilities amounted to £4.8tn, or 224 per cent of gross domestic product .https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2021/02/09/uk-govt-pension-liabilities-surge-1-3trn-in-3-years/ Well, blame Gordon Brown Until he went out of his way to destroy the smoker, the tax paid by them on the tools of their own death paid the costs of NHS treatment of smoking related illnesses many times over, for sufferers who smoked and those who had never smoked alike And the fact many died ages before receiving a single penny in pension payout ensured their compulsory contributions were repossessed for the good of others. |
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Post by Bentley on Nov 23, 2024 20:15:45 GMT
The UK has been obsessed with ( sometimes useless ) degrees instead of vocational skills. We need plumbers, engineers , electricians, technicians etc instead of sending children to marxist Madrasas and saddling them with debt . An educated ( not indoctrinated) and skilled work force would allow us to make stuff and build stuff . That would be a start to closing the wealth gap. Every now and then Bentley, we agree completely. For a generation our school kids were told study hard and you can be anything you want. Not a plasterer, but a rockband, not a retail manager, but a fashion designer. Only very recently have I heard someone say you should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the talent. Lets make the skills something to be proud of. I trained as a cabinet maker and was very proud. Indeed. Maybe if there was the amount of vocational training opportunities since the 90s that there was before and children were not funnelled into “ academia” ( lol) UK society would look a lot different. Young people and not so young people should realise that older folk are not to blame for todays ills . Young people were conned by post Thatcher politicians . |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2024 21:06:16 GMT
Every now and then Bentley, we agree completely. For a generation our school kids were told study hard and you can be anything you want. Not a plasterer, but a rockband, not a retail manager, but a fashion designer. Only very recently have I heard someone say you should have the opportunity to go to university if they have the talent. Lets make the skills something to be proud of. I trained as a cabinet maker and was very proud. Indeed. Maybe if there was the amount of vocational training opportunities since the 90s that there was before and children were not funnelled into “ academia” ( lol) UK society would look a lot different. Young people and not so young people should realise that older folk are not to blame for todays ills . Young people were conned by post Thatcher politicians . Blairs education, education, education. Taken too far. I think it became a money making machine. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 23, 2024 22:06:42 GMT
I have sneaking suspicion about this - so how do you prevent a wealth gap?..ohh..a welfare system So you are saying that a welfare system is a requirement in order to maintain a stable welfare system You don't need to prevent a wealth gap, its a good thing. Humans need the ability to shine, to do better. It drives invention and progress. What we need to control is the size of the gap. If you have the 5 richest families in the UK owning the same amount of money as 32million others while at the other end people unable to heat their homes. Then you have discontent. ..but all this presupposes some kind of heavy welfare redistribution, when the question at hand is what allows a society accept such redistribution - ie what makes such a system stable. You have diverted away from the question into something circular |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 23, 2024 22:34:05 GMT
I'd just like to point out that the wealth gap now is the same as it was in 1945 - what we have today is not abnormal
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2024 22:50:13 GMT
You don't need to prevent a wealth gap, its a good thing. Humans need the ability to shine, to do better. It drives invention and progress. What we need to control is the size of the gap. If you have the 5 richest families in the UK owning the same amount of money as 32million others while at the other end people unable to heat their homes. Then you have discontent. ..but all this presupposes some kind of heavy welfare redistribution, when the question at hand is what allows a society accept such redistribution - ie what makes such a system stable. You have diverted away from the question into something circular I disagree. The question do we need redistribution only encourages the next question. Why? For that you might have to go back to the 9th century, or even the apes. 1, The 9th century and the spread of Christianity in the UK. Up until then power, wealth was down to fighting strength. And most people lived in fear. Christianity came long and (Nothing to do with god) Christians were bound to protect each other. In a very short space of time everyone was a Christian and no one dared attack them. 2, Apes. Of all the creatures Apes showed a high tendency to defend the group. To the point where even sick and aging apes would be fed and protected by the troupe. This is a primary reason why they developed to be the leading species. Not because of their fighting ability, but because it freed some apes from the job of hunting for food and allowed them time to sit and think. So its a learned trait, an Epigenes event. We learnt that cooperation among the whole group was essential to best progress. Because this is a genetic trait we feel uncomfortable is we stray from it. |
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Post by Dogburger on Nov 23, 2024 22:59:56 GMT
It should be affordable but it isnt as there are too many freeloaders in the system Proportionally the numbers are quite small. The far bigger issue is the number not earning enough while working an needing top up benefits. A prime cause of this is house prices/ rents/mortgages Thats certainly an issue that can be solved by raising the minimum wage and capping rents so people can afford to live |
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Post by Orac on Nov 23, 2024 23:14:56 GMT
..but all this presupposes some kind of heavy welfare redistribution, when the question at hand is what allows a society accept such redistribution - ie what makes such a system stable. You have diverted away from the question into something circular I disagree. The question do we need redistribution only encourages the next question. Why? For that you might have to go back to the 9th century, or even the apes. Its a worthy question, but the question posed was this - On welfare systems - If you do too little then people get crushed If you do too much, then you undermine incentives and the flan folds in If you put someone in charge of the problem, they create a bureaucratic empire that has an interest in hobbling people It's insoluble without some extra incentive acting as glue - honor perhaps? or Family?..so what is that glue? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 23, 2024 23:22:01 GMT
I'd just like to point out that the wealth gap now is the same as it was in 1945 - what we have today is not abnormal But what does that mean What do you mean by a 'wealth gap' And what could those at the bottom end obtain for their pittance. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 24, 2024 1:00:37 GMT
The welfare state paid for by UK tax payers for the benefit of everyone is all well and good, in theory. Unfortunately this isn't the 1950's, and in the 1950's when the welfare stare was designed to improve life in post war Brittain no one ever envisaged the rest of the world comming to the UK to take advantage of it. But that's where we are today. UK tax payers whether they like it or not, are funding an international welfare state.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 24, 2024 8:01:55 GMT
I'd just like to point out that the wealth gap now is the same as it was in 1945 - what we have today is not abnormal But what does that mean What do you mean by a 'wealth gap' And what could those at the bottom end obtain for their pittance. it's the share of the national wealth that is controlled by each cohort - in the UK the top 10% have around 35% and the bottom 50% around 20%. If you are measuring simply income inequality then that is at its lowest point in recorded history - we have never been more equal. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 24, 2024 8:17:25 GMT
But what does that mean What do you mean by a 'wealth gap' And what could those at the bottom end obtain for their pittance. it's the share of the national wealth that is controlled by each cohort - in the UK the top 10% have around 35% and the bottom 50% around 20%. If you are measuring simply income inequality then that is at its lowest point in recorded history - we have never been more equal. Thanks for that. In fact that's not a definition I've seen before, most of the discussions I've seen in the past focussed on stuff like 'the CEO takes home 300 times what the call centre closet monkey does' Or my personal favourite 'The CEO's redundancy package was 1,000 times mine' As was the case with Logica. I got £3000 and he got three million when he had to leave for outsourcing classified work to a non ally. .. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 24, 2024 8:25:45 GMT
I'd just like to point out that the wealth gap now is the same as it was in 1945 - what we have today is not abnormal But what does that mean What do you mean by a 'wealth gap' And what could those at the bottom end obtain for their pittance. I think there are so many ways to slice and interpret this to give yourself different results, that it's a meaningless statement |
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Post by Handyman on Nov 24, 2024 8:45:36 GMT
while there certainly is a urgent need to drive people to work ;.the Elephant in the room is state pension this is a old report from 2021 this is the reason i belief state pension should be means tested The UK government's pension liabilities have risen 22 per cent in three years, raising questions about the sustainability of public pension schemes. Article continues after advert According to figures from the Office for National Statistics, published yesterday (February 8), the government’s pension liabilities had surged by 22 per cent between 2015 and 2018, to £6.4tn. State pension liabilities amounted to £4.8tn, or 224 per cent of gross domestic product .https://www.ftadviser.com/pensions/2021/02/09/uk-govt-pension-liabilities-surge-1-3trn-in-3-years/ Well, blame Gordon Brown Until he went out of his way to destroy the smoker, the tax paid by them on the tools of their own death paid the costs of NHS treatment of smoking related illnesses many times over, for sufferers who smoked and those who had never smoked alike And the fact many died ages before receiving a single penny in pension payout ensured their compulsory contributions were repossessed for the good of others. Also Gordon Brown raided Private Pensions which meant that many workers who had Private Pensions they were paying for as well as paying NI to qualify for their State Pension and Income Tax meant their Private Pension Pot was worth much less than they should have been, some had to work longer than they had planned to do |
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