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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2022 16:25:12 GMT
I refer you to my post above. The Church street bomb and the rather unpleasant method of killing suspected police informers were significant acts of terrorism. I fully understand that it is in your interests to turn the discussion to something else, given that you, momentarily at least, gave the impression of being a fascist. Let's stick to the subject at hand. I know practically nothing about Mandela, and I don't need to in order to recognise fascism when I see it. Surely we are discussing the rights and wrongs of terrorism. One cannot say that one condemns terrorism but in the case of SA one lends it support. AS I said it depends on how one views government. The trust in the democratic process is being eroded by the actions of most Western Governments and Germany I would think is no exception. In teh main people do not wish to vote populist but they rely to a great extent on governments doing what they said they would, and largely in the West that is not the case. A coup is an early sign of something seriously wrong as I am sure the plotters would have expected a wide degree of public support once they installed themselves in power and laid out their programme. That is not support that is just the reality. It is affecting us here as well www.carnegieuktrust.org.uk/blog-posts/loss-of-public-trust-in-government-is-the-biggest-threat-to-democracy-in-england/In a democracy a consensus is vital. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 8, 2022 16:26:51 GMT
I remarked earlier that your post gave the objective impression that you supported their actions. I left space for the conclusion that that may not have been your intention. Can you confirm that you strongly disagree with the actions these people planned to take? Of course I do. It does however indicate the general loss of the consensus that most Western governments are currently experiencing becasue they appear to be in thrall and at the command of powers beyond the ballot box. It is that loss of consensus that makes the actions understandable. In that case I apologise for saying you support terrorism. Perhaps next time when you attempt to justify, or understand the reasons for, a coup attempt you can add that you don't support their methods in order to avoid confusion. Maybe don't follow your condemnation with a ''however'' either. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 8, 2022 16:28:42 GMT
I fully understand that it is in your interests to turn the discussion to something else, given that you, momentarily at least, gave the impression of being a fascist. Let's stick to the subject at hand. I know practically nothing about Mandela, and I don't need to in order to recognise fascism when I see it. Surely we are discussing the rights and wrongs of terrorism. One cannot say that one condemns terrorism but in the case of SA one lends it support. AS I said it depends on how one views government. The trust in the democratic process is being eroded by the actions of most Western Governments and Germany I would think is no exception. In teh main people do not wish to vote populist but they rely to a great extent on governments doing what they said they would, and largely in the West that is not the case. A coup is an early sign of something seriously wrong as I am sure the plotters would have expected a wide degree of public support once they installed themselves in power and laid out their programme. That is not support that is just the reality. It is affecting us here as well www.carnegieuktrust.org.uk/blog-posts/loss-of-public-trust-in-government-is-the-biggest-threat-to-democracy-in-england/In a democracy a consensus is vital. Sandy, you made a remark that any reasonable person would have interpreted as being supportive of fascism. You got a reasonable response from reasonable people who support democracy. You have now clarified your position. You say you don't support fascism or what these people proposed to do. Fair enough. The above looks like something of an attempt at an apology for what these people were about to do, though. Maybe you should end all your posts on this matter on a clearer note. Qualifying your remarks with a 'but ...' is equivocal. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2022 18:11:05 GMT
Surely we are discussing the rights and wrongs of terrorism. One cannot say that one condemns terrorism but in the case of SA one lends it support. AS I said it depends on how one views government. The trust in the democratic process is being eroded by the actions of most Western Governments and Germany I would think is no exception. In teh main people do not wish to vote populist but they rely to a great extent on governments doing what they said they would, and largely in the West that is not the case. A coup is an early sign of something seriously wrong as I am sure the plotters would have expected a wide degree of public support once they installed themselves in power and laid out their programme. That is not support that is just the reality. It is affecting us here as well www.carnegieuktrust.org.uk/blog-posts/loss-of-public-trust-in-government-is-the-biggest-threat-to-democracy-in-england/In a democracy a consensus is vital. Sandy, you made a remark that any reasonable person would have interpreted as being supportive of fascism. You got a reasonable response from reasonable people who support democracy. You have now clarified your position. You say you don't support fascism or what these people proposed to do. Fair enough. The above looks like something of an attempt at an apology for what these people were about to do, though. Maybe you should end all your posts on this matter on a clearer note. Qualifying your remarks with a 'but ...' is equivocal. Perhaps people should spend more time considering why things happen. The Afd were targeted as a suspect party and subject to all sorts of surveillance and they had grown as a political threat after the undemocratic immigrant influx in 2015 and on. Once you start to control and restrict democracy, irrespective of how unpleasant those you oppose appear to be, then a coup is always a risk most especially if the popularity of that party is growing. Restrictions beget reactions and often those reactions are unpleasant. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2022 18:48:49 GMT
You stated it as a fact, not as a suggestion, and now you're reading something from my own post (which was only a question) that isn't there. Just because Sandypine can see reasons why some people may resort to extremist measures does not mean he supports them. So if I said I can see reasons why Pakistani rape gangs groom white trash girls whose parents don't know where they go at night you'd be OK with that would you? I can see reasons why they do, perhaps the words you use are important. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 8, 2022 20:24:13 GMT
Sandy, you made a remark that any reasonable person would have interpreted as being supportive of fascism. You got a reasonable response from reasonable people who support democracy. You have now clarified your position. You say you don't support fascism or what these people proposed to do. Fair enough. The above looks like something of an attempt at an apology for what these people were about to do, though. Maybe you should end all your posts on this matter on a clearer note. Qualifying your remarks with a 'but ...' is equivocal. Perhaps people should spend more time considering why things happen. The Afd were targeted as a suspect party and subject to all sorts of surveillance and they had grown as a political threat after the undemocratic immigrant influx in 2015 and on. Once you start to control and restrict democracy, irrespective of how unpleasant those you oppose appear to be, then a coup is always a risk most especially if the popularity of that party is growing. Restrictions beget reactions and often those reactions are unpleasant. A lesser man would have made damage limitation his first order of business. You've decided to keep the moral ambiguity alive. Kudos. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2022 20:54:12 GMT
Of course I do. It does however indicate the general loss of the consensus that most Western governments are currently experiencing becasue they appear to be in thrall and at the command of powers beyond the ballot box. It is that loss of consensus that makes the actions understandable. In that case I apologise for saying you support terrorism. Perhaps next time when you attempt to justify, or understand the reasons for, a coup attempt you can add that you don't support their methods in order to avoid confusion. Maybe don't follow your condemnation with a ''however'' either. No problem. I should think I hardly need to condemn people who are condemned by their own actions. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 8, 2022 20:55:42 GMT
In that case I apologise for saying you support terrorism. Perhaps next time when you attempt to justify, or understand the reasons for, a coup attempt you can add that you don't support their methods in order to avoid confusion. Maybe don't follow your condemnation with a ''however'' either. No problem. I should think I hardly need to condemn people who are condemned by their own actions. Hardly condemn sums it up. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 8, 2022 21:04:30 GMT
Perhaps people should spend more time considering why things happen. The Afd were targeted as a suspect party and subject to all sorts of surveillance and they had grown as a political threat after the undemocratic immigrant influx in 2015 and on. Once you start to control and restrict democracy, irrespective of how unpleasant those you oppose appear to be, then a coup is always a risk most especially if the popularity of that party is growing. Restrictions beget reactions and often those reactions are unpleasant. A lesser man would have made damage limitation his first order of business. You've decided to keep the moral ambiguity alive. Kudos. I do not understand why I have to limit damage for something I have not said or even implied, the fact that the inference of others is wrong is hardly my fault. There is no moral ambiguity on my part I have consistently said that violence is not the way forward as it begets a form of dictatorial control as no doubt this one would have. Having said that the consensus that Western governments have enjoyed for decades is rapidly disintegrating as it is clear that the well being of those to whom they owe their best governance is not their first consideration. In the UK Labour lost its core support over a period of 20 years and now the Tories have lost their core support. It makes no sense unless other forces are at work. In Germany they tried to limit and control the populist movement through law. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 8, 2022 22:07:58 GMT
A lesser man would have made damage limitation his first order of business. You've decided to keep the moral ambiguity alive. Kudos. I do not understand why I have to limit damage for something I have not said or even implied, the fact that the inference of others is wrong is hardly my fault. There is no moral ambiguity on my part I have consistently said that violence is not the way forward as it begets a form of dictatorial control as no doubt this one would have. Having said that the consensus that Western governments have enjoyed for decades is rapidly disintegrating as it is clear that the well being of those to whom they owe their best governance is not their first consideration. In the UK Labour lost its core support over a period of 20 years and now the Tories have lost their core support. It makes no sense unless other forces are at work. In Germany they tried to limit and control the populist movement through law. I was waiting for you say 'but...', but got a 'having said that ...' instead. Just as good. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 9, 2022 8:07:58 GMT
You accused somebody, very directly, of being a supporter of terrorism on this forum. I looked and found no grounds for the accusation. Obviously you don't have a problem with smearing members on this forum with accusations of illegal activities, when they just seem to be offering an objective argument as to why there are people in Germany who may resort to such extreme measures. Well done, you've created an environment of fear where people won't dare engage. Yes. Attempting to justify the motives of a far right coup attempt is supporting terrorism. I don't think that a coup is terrorism. If the next govt in the UK decides to effectively take the country back into the EU via a BRINO type deal - which is quite possible - I don't think a coup would be unjustified. If our MPs persist in trying to deny the result of the biggest democratic decision this country has ever made then there would be no alternative but to remove them - by whatever means possible. And it wouldn't just be the "Far-right" who would be doing it. And the terrorism that is currently going on in the UK (and most of the rest of the world) is being carried out in the name of Islam. Yet many people on this forum defend Islam and its ideology. And the holy book of Islam openly incites violence against infidels - and people defend that. Confusion and double standards. |
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Post by Handyman on Dec 9, 2022 8:49:55 GMT
They're all far-right conspiracy theorists and far-far-right terrorists controlled by Russia. I should read less MSM.
Or just people concerned at the direction their country is taking perhaps?
I was listening to a German journalist on the radio this afternoon and it would appear that some of these people have occupied quite responsible positions previously and aren't just the usual bunch of cranks, although I have no doubt that they will be presnted that way.
Makes one wonder if their aims are more widely supported.
Interesting times.
Yes some of those arrested are serving or former soldiers, I believe one is a Judge another is serving member of Special Forces , the man they wanted to put in power is a obscure Prince |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 9, 2022 11:04:17 GMT
Yes. Attempting to justify the motives of a far right coup attempt is supporting terrorism. I don't think that a coup is terrorism. If the next govt in the UK decides to effectively take the country back into the EU via a BRINO type deal - which is quite possible - I don't think a coup would be unjustified. If our MPs persist in trying to deny the result of the biggest democratic decision this country has ever made then there would be no alternative but to remove them - by whatever means possible. And it wouldn't just be the "Far-right" who would be doing it. And the terrorism that is currently going on in the UK (and most of the rest of the world) is being carried out in the name of Islam. Yet many people on this forum defend Islam and its ideology. And the holy book of Islam openly incites violence against infidels - and people defend that. Confusion and double standards. When your argument is semantic you have no argument. |
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2022 11:51:21 GMT
Yes. Attempting to justify the motives of a far right coup attempt is supporting terrorism. I don't think that a coup is terrorism. If the next govt in the UK decides to effectively take the country back into the EU via a BRINO type deal - which is quite possible - I don't think a coup would be unjustified. If our MPs persist in trying to deny the result of the biggest democratic decision this country has ever made then there would be no alternative but to remove them - by whatever means possible. And it wouldn't just be the "Far-right" who would be doing it. Don't think so, Snuggles. Your lot couldn't be bothered to join Farage on his march for Brexit. The chances that you will get off your arses to have a revolution are slim to nil. And without a young person to help you cross the street, your army will be stopped at the first road it comes to, anyway. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2022 14:10:16 GMT
No problem. I should think I hardly need to condemn people who are condemned by their own actions. Hardly condemn sums it up. Then one could go on and ask people to condemn all sorts of things. I do not need to condemn drug dealers, rapists, thieves and vagabonds as part of a discussion as we know what they are from their own actions. In this case currently we know not what the plot was or indeed if anyone is actually guilty of any heinous crime yet. |
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