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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 26, 2024 15:03:00 GMT
Yes I said you would expect them to be to the right of Labour. But would they need to be to the right of the current Tory party. Like I say history would suggest otherwise, the British electorate traditionally rejects extremes of both right and left. The ruling Tory party were not right wing Ill repeat this in the vain hope that it stays in your head “The ruling Tory party produced much right wing rhetoric but didn't follow it up…as explained to you several times .” They were to the right of the Labour party, they may not have been right wing enough for you, however, off the top of my head, in my lifetime, I can't recall a single instance of either Labour or the Tories losing power then getting back in at the next election by moving further to the right/left. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 26, 2024 15:06:09 GMT
The ruling Tory party were not right wing Ill repeat this in the vain hope that it stays in your head “The ruling Tory party produced much right wing rhetoric but didn't follow it up…as explained to you several times .” They were to the right of the Labour party, they may not have been right wing enough for you, however, off the top of my head, in my lifetime, I can't recall a single instance of either Labour or the Tories losing power then getting back in at the next election by moving further to the right/left. Their rhetoric was to the right of Labour but not what they achieved . As explained to you ad nauseum. Then you are not aware of the Tories under Thatcher? |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 26, 2024 15:07:43 GMT
They were to the right of the Labour party, they may not have been right wing enough for you, however, off the top of my head, in my lifetime, I can't recall a single instance of either Labour or the Tories losing power then getting back in at the next election by moving further to the right/left. Their rhetoric was to the right of Labour but not what they achieved . As explained to you ad nauseum. Then you are not aware of the Tories under Thatcher? So in terms of delivery they were to the left of Labour? The Tories under Thatcher I'll take your word for it I was in infants school at the time. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 26, 2024 15:16:51 GMT
Their rhetoric was to the right of Labour but not what they achieved . As explained to you ad nauseum. Then you are not aware of the Tories under Thatcher? So in terms of delivery they were to the left of Labour? The Tories under Thatcher I'll take your word for it I was in infants school at the time. Did I say that ? The Thatcher government influenced Labour and Tory governments since . |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 26, 2024 17:21:49 GMT
Reducing legal and illegal immigration, cheaper energy and ending the Lefts culture wars would not have eliminated their failures in those areas? - are you sure? The obsession with culture war side issues (at best) instead of things like the cost of living crisis is one of the things that marked them out as out of touch. I don't think a few less rainbow flags would have made people forget they're still paying hundreds of pounds out in mortgage payments every month thanks to Truss. Is reducing energy bills an exclusively right wing policy? Or reducing immigration for that matter, both the Tories and Labour have talked about this. Exactly - that is why their core vote failed to support them. After 14 years of talk they had just had enough. The cost of living crisis was precipitated by high energy prices - which were due to the government failing to access UK energy and pursuing expensive renewables instead. You just continually highlight why the Government for the past 14 years were not conservatives.. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 26, 2024 17:23:17 GMT
yes - so who should they have voted for? So less than 18% of their 2019 votes went to the right of them? And we have no way of knowing what their motives were. well I think we can be pretty certain that they were not looking for more left-wing policies.. |
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Post by ratcliff on Jul 26, 2024 18:31:42 GMT
Oh do please put your politicised ranting into the skip. Stick to facts - the research by YouGov shows that of the Tories 2019 support, in 2024 they lost 5% to Labour, 3% to the LibDems and 19% voted Reform or stayed at home. Your idea that had the Tories been more left wing they would not have lost so much support is one of the most bonkers ideas I have seen on this forum for many a long day. So what about the other 73%? And where is your evidence that any of the votes they lost in any direction had nothing to do with the factors I listed? In order to win a majority of 1 at the next GE the Tories are going to have to pull off a record breaking swing, they aren't going to do that just by appealing to their base. I'm not saying that they would have not lost so much support if they had been more left wing, I think they were screwed regardless for the reasons I've already listed. I'm saying that a more right version of the clown car that just suffered a record defeat isn't going to get them back into power. A little humility and actually listening to voters concerns like Starmer did when he first became Labour leader would be a good start. People laughed when he did those virtual town halls, whose laughing now? Which part of 80% of the electorate did not vote labour do you not understand? The Tory party shed votes because much of the traditional support either voted Reform or stayed at home, they didn't switch to labour |
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Post by ratcliff on Jul 26, 2024 18:40:32 GMT
Ever asked yourself whether Truss wasn’t the whole of the narrative ? Or maybe , just maybe that a Starmer ‘ romped home’ because the Tories failed to achieve any of the right wing rhetoric that it promised ? Or maybe the Tories were led by politicians that had no idea how to achieve the promises that they made to the electorate? Have you ever asked yourself that? See I can do that .🙄 If the Tories lost because they were not Right Wing enough you would expect a lot more of their votes, and so seats, to have gone to Reform. Instead they want to the Liberals and Labour. Should be a huge clue there for you. If it was that "the Tories were led by politicians that had no idea how to achieve the promises that they made to the electorate" then maybe the Tory Party needs a new methodology for choosing those who sit in high-office, perhaps one that tests competency, and perhaps they need to re-diversify their party political gene-pool away from chinless wonder, never had a real job, Eton twonks? In fact I think ALL MPs should have to held a real word job BEFORE being eligible to stand as an MP. The whole system is awash with PPE Graduates who wouldn't know what real work was if it hit them in the face. All The Best
I'd agree with this provided that real world job is paid and in the private sector for a minimum of 5 years |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 26, 2024 18:54:08 GMT
Ever asked yourself whether Truss wasn’t the whole of the narrative ? Or maybe , just maybe that a Starmer ‘ romped home’ because the Tories failed to achieve any of the right wing rhetoric that it promised ? Or maybe the Tories were led by politicians that had no idea how to achieve the promises that they made to the electorate? Have you ever asked yourself that? See I can do that .🙄 If the Tories lost because they were not Right Wing enough you would expect a lot more of their votes, and so seats, to have gone to Reform. Instead they want to the Liberals and Labour. Should be a huge clue there for you. If it was that "the Tories were led by politicians that had no idea how to achieve the promises that they made to the electorate" then maybe the Tory Party needs a new methodology for choosing those who sit in high-office, perhaps one that tests competency, and perhaps they need to re-diversify their party political gene-pool away from chinless wonder, never had a real job, Eton twonks? In fact I think ALL MPs should have to held a real word job BEFORE being eligible to stand as an MP. The whole system is awash with PPE Graduates who wouldn't know what real work was if it hit them in the face. All The Best I said “Or maybe , just maybe that a Starmer ‘ romped home’ because the Tories failed to achieve any of the right wing rhetoric that it promised ?” I know you are not the sharpest knife in the drawer but even you should be capable of understanding that the sentence above doesn’t mean ‘ not right wing enough ‘. It means that the Tories did not achieve their own right wing rhetoric . By not achieving what they promised , they were both incompetent and failed to achieve what they promised ie stopping the boats, reducing immigration, tackling wokery, securing the kind of Brexit promised , reducing energy prices , stop the race to net zero poverty etc. Had they achieved this , they would have been both competent and further to the right . Why would Tory voters blindly vote for Reform just because Reform has a more right wing agenda than the Tories? They would have to be convinced that Reform could have achieved what it promised . Maybe their world view was less simplistic than yours . Reform was ‘ more right wing ‘ but wasn’t necessarily capable of achieving right wing goals . Should be a huge clue for you but obviously wasn’t . |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 26, 2024 19:12:05 GMT
Which part of 80% of the electorate did not vote labour do you not understand? The Tory party shed votes because much of the traditional support either voted Reform or stayed at home, they didn't switch to labour Indeed, also, I'm sure Starmer will privately take no comfort in the fact that he won the election with 34% of the vote, and in 2019 Corbyn lost with 40% of the vote. In other words, Corbyn was more popular than Starmer. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 26, 2024 19:15:50 GMT
Which part of 80% of the electorate did not vote labour do you not understand? The Tory party shed votes because much of the traditional support either voted Reform or stayed at home, they didn't switch to labour Indeed, also, I'm sure Starmer will privately take no comfort in the fact that he won the election with 34% of the vote, and in 2019 Corbyn lost with 40% of the vote. In other words, Corbyn was more popular than Starmer. The opposition will take comfort in the fact that it wouldn’t take too many disappointed voters to turn the vote around at the next election . That's why we need an effective opposition capable of presenting an alternative to Labour when they fail. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 26, 2024 19:36:14 GMT
Indeed, also, I'm sure Starmer will privately take no comfort in the fact that he won the election with 34% of the vote, and in 2019 Corbyn lost with 40% of the vote. In other words, Corbyn was more popular than Starmer. The opposition will take comfort in the fact that it wouldn’t take too many disappointed voters to turn the vote around at the next election . That's why we need an effective opposition capable of presenting an alternative to Labour when they fail. I agree, and I'm sure behind the scenes Labour are very aware of it. Especially since Labour voters, as yet, have no idea how Starmers pro immigration, pro EU, pro net zero plans will affect their future and this country. I've said it before, but I think this government have every prospect of becoming the most unpopular government in my lifetime. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 26, 2024 21:32:30 GMT
If the Tories lost because they were not Right Wing enough you would expect a lot more of their votes, and so seats, to have gone to Reform. Instead they want to the Liberals and Labour. Should be a huge clue there for you. If it was that "the Tories were led by politicians that had no idea how to achieve the promises that they made to the electorate" then maybe the Tory Party needs a new methodology for choosing those who sit in high-office, perhaps one that tests competency, and perhaps they need to re-diversify their party political gene-pool away from chinless wonder, never had a real job, Eton twonks? In fact I think ALL MPs should have to held a real word job BEFORE being eligible to stand as an MP. The whole system is awash with PPE Graduates who wouldn't know what real work was if it hit them in the face. All The Best
I'd agree with this provided that real world job is paid and in the private sector for a minimum of 5 years Well I disagree with the Private Sector exclusivity. I would suggest anyone wanting to be Health Minister should have worked in the NHS, anyone wanting to be Home Secretary should have worked in the Police or Courts system etc. In fact given MPs are spending, exclusively, Public Money they real should have some experience of the Public Sector. Of course, the Private Sector has a role to play, and I would suggest that 5 years in that sector is appropriate for the Business Secretary. There's this notion that the Private Sector, understanding it, and appeasing it, is the answer to all our problems. Nothing could be further from the truth. Look at all three major issues in the UK right now: all of them stem from the Private Sector. Cost Of Living: Private Sector Greed Housing Market: Private Sector Greed. Immigration: Private Sector Greed. I'll also remind you that the last Tory PM worked exclusively in the Private Sector prior to his foray into Politics, as did Liz Truss, as did Kwasi Kwarteng. Did so well out of that Private Sector experience, didn't we? All The Best |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 27, 2024 6:44:06 GMT
The obsession with culture war side issues (at best) instead of things like the cost of living crisis is one of the things that marked them out as out of touch. I don't think a few less rainbow flags would have made people forget they're still paying hundreds of pounds out in mortgage payments every month thanks to Truss. Is reducing energy bills an exclusively right wing policy? Or reducing immigration for that matter, both the Tories and Labour have talked about this. Exactly - that is why their core vote failed to support them. After 14 years of talk they had just had enough. The cost of living crisis was precipitated by high energy prices - which were due to the government failing to access UK energy and pursuing expensive renewables instead. You just continually highlight why the Government for the past 14 years were not conservatives.. There were a number of reasons for climbing energy costs including the war in Ukraine. Another factor in the cost of living was people's mortgages going up thanks to Liz Truss pursuing right wing policies. |
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Post by happyhornet3 on Jul 27, 2024 6:45:12 GMT
So less than 18% of their 2019 votes went to the right of them? And we have no way of knowing what their motives were. well I think we can be pretty certain that they were not looking for more left-wing policies.. Or right wing policies it seems. |
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