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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 14, 2022 17:26:00 GMT
Do non-majority governments not have to face future General Elections Mags? Didn’t know that Dappy, during my reply i accidently edited your post. My sincere apologies if anything was lost LOL, not to worry. I'm sure no one noticed  |
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Reform UK
Oct 14, 2022 17:28:43 GMT
via mobile
Post by dappy on Oct 14, 2022 17:28:43 GMT
I am with respect Mags struggling to understand your logic Mags.
You seem to be arguing that a Government elected by less than 50% of the electorate has more legitimacy and accountability than one representing more than 50% of the electorate.
You also seem again to be arguing that the latter can’t be voted out of power at the next election. That’s just factually wrong.
Thanks though for the tone of discussion on this thread. An encouraging start. Let’s hope it continues.
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Post by Orac on Oct 14, 2022 18:00:33 GMT
You seem to be arguing that a Government elected by less than 50% of the electorate has more legitimacy and accountability than one representing more than 50% of the electorate. That's quite possible. For instance, a 'consensus government' who picks random, but equal numbers of, policies of both major parties could be said to representing most of the population or no-one at all. The accountability gap can be seen by reflecting on the above - if neither of the agents / parties in the above arrangement is in direct control of which policies are selected to be implemented, who made the decisions and who do we sack? You also seem again to be arguing that the latter can’t be voted out of power at the next election. That’s just factually wrong. I'm saying that real accountability has two components - the power to make a decision + the ability to sack (or whatever). If one of them are missing there is no real accountability Thanks though for the tone of discussion on this thread. An encouraging start. Let’s hope it continues. I'm only marginally in control of that, so can't be held accountable  |
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Post by Handyman on Oct 14, 2022 18:10:08 GMT
I wish that was true Red, we now have a new generation who are now eligible to vote that have never lived under a Labour Government which is why Labour led by Blair won that GE, in addition to that the Politically motivated teachers have taught them to hate the Tories, one only has to look what is happening on our University Campuses and the attack on Freedom of Speach and Debate taking place Yes, fair enough. But, yes there's always a 'but' lol, Blair was a left wing Tory which is why he was the most successful Labour prime minister in the history of the party. Starmer is undoubtedly a pro EU left wing socialist, of course he doesn't talk about it at the moment because he knows it's not a vote winner but look at Starmers front bench, you will not find a bigger bunch of left wing woke socialists anywhere, and the thing is they're proud of it. Remember what Lisa Nandy said about Joe Biden; " He is a really woke guy and someone the Labour party can look up to" And of course schools and universities are left wing, but that's nothing new is it. They have been left wing since at least the 1960's. To be honest, I imagine come the next election many people will look at the Tories, then look at Labour, and in despair as a protest vote perhaps, vote for Reform UK. Unless Truss if she is still in place at the end of the month and the Tories really get a grip, I may just give up and not bother casting my vote ever again and buy a Villa in the sun |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 14, 2022 18:27:13 GMT
I will always vote, even grudgingly. I don't like the thought of wasting my vote. Many would I'm sure agree that a villa in the sun isn't a bad idea. I know if I suggested selling up and moving to Spain Mrs R would go for it in a heartbeat. Her sister has lived in Spain for years, that's a good a reason as any to stay in England, lol.
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Post by colbops on Oct 14, 2022 18:29:53 GMT
I am with respect Mags struggling to understand your logic Mags. You seem to be arguing that a Government elected by less than 50% of the electorate has more legitimacy and accountability than one representing more than 50% of the electorate. You also seem again to be arguing that the latter can’t be voted out of power at the next election. That’s just factually wrong. Thanks though for the tone of discussion on this thread. An encouraging start. Let’s hope it continues. 1.) Governments aren't elected 2.) The government doesn't represent the electorate, parliament represents the interests of the electorate and ensures that the government takes those interests into account. 3.) Governments aren't voted out, just as they aren't voted in. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 14, 2022 18:43:49 GMT
I am with respect Mags struggling to understand your logic Mags. You seem to be arguing that a Government elected by less than 50% of the electorate has more legitimacy and accountability than one representing more than 50% of the electorate. You also seem again to be arguing that the latter can’t be voted out of power at the next election. That’s just factually wrong. Thanks though for the tone of discussion on this thread. An encouraging start. Let’s hope it continues. 1.) Governments aren't elected 2.) The government doesn't represent the electorate, parliament represents the interests of the electorate and ensures that the government takes those interests into account. 3.) Governments aren't voted out, just as they aren't voted in. If not to elect a government, what is the purpose of a general election? |
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Post by colbops on Oct 14, 2022 18:52:56 GMT
1.) Governments aren't elected 2.) The government doesn't represent the electorate, parliament represents the interests of the electorate and ensures that the government takes those interests into account. 3.) Governments aren't voted out, just as they aren't voted in. If not to elect a government, what is the purpose of a general election? Oh, Mr Rackham you are kidding! Is politics a very recent interest? It is your opportunity to vote for a candidate to represent your constituency in parliament |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 14, 2022 19:01:13 GMT
If not to elect a government, what is the purpose of a general election? Oh, Mr Rackham you are kidding! Is politics a very recent interest? It is your opportunity to vote for a candidate to represent your constituency in parliament LOL, very good. Now get in the bin you pillock. Yes of course you put an X next to a candidate's name, but you vote for a candidate in the hope the party he or she represents wins enough votes to form the next government. |
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Post by om15 on Oct 15, 2022 12:47:11 GMT
Well, it looks like things might be stirring in the Reform camp, Richard Tice is going to stand in Hartlepool against the Tory MP, and Reform pledge to put candidates in "nearly" all seats, I seem to recall last time that didn't apply to Scotland, just the RUK, www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1y2ZDY8xs&ab_channel=MichaelHeaverAs a lifelong Tory I am interested, I don't blame the current Tories for all of our currents ills, but I do blame them for their attitude, all we hear at the moment is their concerns for the next election rather than concerns for the good of the Country. Boris didn't finish Brexit properly, hosed our tax money about during covid, was to lazy and self important to attend to what needed to be attended to and the Tories let him get on with it without interference until they dumped him, now they want him back! I don't think that Liz Truss can last the week and the Remainers are circling, encouraged by the appointment of Hunt. We may be faced with a Labour Government and the dream team of Dianne Abbot as Chancellor, Eddie Izzard as Foreign Secretary with Mick Lynch as a SPAD, some may think that could be an improvement. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 15, 2022 13:53:31 GMT
Well, it looks like things might be stirring in the Reform camp, Richard Tice is going to stand in Hartlepool against the Tory MP, and Reform pledge to put candidates in "nearly" all seats, I seem to recall last time that didn't apply to Scotland, just the RUK, www.youtube.com/watch?v=LY1y2ZDY8xs&ab_channel=MichaelHeaverAs a lifelong Tory I am interested, I don't blame the current Tories for all of our currents ills, but I do blame them for their attitude, all we hear at the moment is their concerns for the next election rather than concerns for the good of the Country. Boris didn't finish Brexit properly, hosed our tax money about during covid, was to lazy and self important to attend to what needed to be attended to and the Tories let him get on with it without interference until they dumped him, now they want him back! I don't think that Liz Truss can last the week and the Remainers are circling, encouraged by the appointment of Hunt. We may be faced with a Labour Government and the dream team of Dianne Abbot as Chancellor, Eddie Izzard as Foreign Secretary with Mick Lynch as a SPAD, some may think that could be an improvement. Yes I've heard more and more Tories are saying Brexit has failed the UK. I look forward the Reform making a stand, I think it will unite the remain community and create the best chance for a referendum on re-joining the EU. Here's how that will go..  Didn't see a gap that big last time we had a vote Eh? I'm tired of Brexiters waxing lyrical about how they represent the common man, they don't. |
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Post by colbops on Oct 15, 2022 14:15:15 GMT
Oh, Mr Rackham you are kidding! Is politics a very recent interest? It is your opportunity to vote for a candidate to represent your constituency in parliament LOL, very good. Now get in the bin you pillock. Yes of course you put an X next to a candidate's name, but you vote for a candidate in the hope the party he or she represents wins enough votes to form the next government. I don't. I assess the candidates and vote for the one that I think demonstrates the best decision making skills and that will be more likely to best represent my constituency. I live in hope that over time more people will learn how our democratic system is supposed to work and do the same. That going forward, parliament will be stocked full of people that are competent when it comes to representing their constituencies, and that have good decision making skills. That this will result in party leaders being selected from that pool of competent people. That the party leader that gets to form a government will have only good calibre people to choose from. And finally, that with parliament stocked with a good calibre of person, it will hold the government of the day to account effectively, keeping them on the straight and narrow during their time at the helm. Of course, my hope does take a bit of a battering now and then when I see how many don't understand our political system, particularly when those people hang around on politics forums, but I remain optimistic that over time, people will start to realise that the reason our country is being lead badly is the fault of the electorate, and people will realise they need to change their behaviour when it comes to voting |
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Post by B0ycey on Oct 15, 2022 14:28:31 GMT
I'm tired of Brexiters waxing lyrical about how they represent the common man, they don't. Indeed Zanygame, polling has been for rejoining for a long time now. We have had the referendum honored now, if we were to just go by public opinion, we would have another and rejoin. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Oct 15, 2022 14:34:53 GMT
Indeed. There's a national rejoin march in London next week Unfortunately I can't make it, but I hope that it is well supported.
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Post by zanygame on Oct 15, 2022 14:36:28 GMT
LOL, very good. Now get in the bin you pillock. Yes of course you put an X next to a candidate's name, but you vote for a candidate in the hope the party he or she represents wins enough votes to form the next government. I don't. I assess the candidates and vote for the one that I think demonstrates the best decision making skills and that will be more likely to best represent my constituency. I live in hope that over time more people will learn how our democratic system is supposed to work and do the same. That going forward, parliament will be stocked full of people that are competent when it comes to representing their constituencies, and that have good decision making skills. That this will result in party leaders being selected from that pool of competent people. That the party leader that gets to form a government will have only good calibre people to choose from. And finally, that with parliament stocked with a good calibre of person, it will hold the government of the day to account effectively, keeping them on the straight and narrow during their time at the helm. Of course, my hope does take a bit of a battering now and then when I see how many don't understand our political system, particularly when those people hang around on politics forums, but I remain optimistic that over time, people will start to realise that the reason our country is being lead badly is the fault of the electorate, and people will realise they need to change their behaviour when it comes to voting The problem with you plan is that you don't get to choose your candidate. You are presented with a single candidate from each party and even then only one is likely to end up having a say in parliament. Personally I would like to mimic the German system where you vote separately for your local guy and your parliamentary party. I don't think the guy who's going to get my bypass built is necessarily the guy who can help run the country. |
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