|
|
Post by sheepy on Oct 23, 2022 17:49:13 GMT
"Because they believe in democracy". But they didn't believe in it every other time, what kind of logic might this be?
|
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Oct 23, 2022 18:16:50 GMT
This has been much discussed, but on balance I think it was an issue that deserved a referendum. However what you would have been voting for at the time would not be anything like what you ended up with. This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 18:28:58 GMT
So now even proportional representation is a threat to Brexit. That's not what he said - in fact he said the opposite PR typically allows a crusty, unaccountable (un-sackable) bureaucracy to run the system. Such a system wouldn't have allowed a referendum. He didn't mention bureaucrats, unaccountable or otherwise. |
|
|
|
Post by jonksy on Oct 23, 2022 18:31:02 GMT
This has been much discussed, but on balance I think it was an issue that deserved a referendum. However what you would have been voting for at the time would not be anything like what you ended up with. This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. This is the prpblem. Those who make the most noise over the Brexit results were quite happy to remain in the eu even tho they knew full well the UK were taken into the eu under a blatant lie. But those of us who could see through that lie never harped on about it and just had to accept it and await our turn. And then when we had the opportunity to have our voices heard we gabbed the opportunity with both hands. |
|
|
|
Post by Orac on Oct 23, 2022 18:53:22 GMT
He didn't mention bureaucrats, unaccountable or otherwise. I added some details |
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Oct 23, 2022 18:53:50 GMT
Well, Richard Tice has the ball rolling, he is preparing for a general election within weeks, with 500 candidates, here he is His delivery was terrible as is so often the case with Tice. It looked as if he was treading from a prompt and missing things. He's a decent bloke but not leadership material and his sidekick is the same. |
|
|
|
Post by Toreador on Oct 23, 2022 18:58:12 GMT
If the 2015 UK general election had been held under a PR system, UKIP would have been the third-largest party in Parliament, with 83 seats, instead of one. I would have thought you found this worrying ZG? I'm sure people who today claim they want PR would find the realities of it not quite what they expected. Indeed, a study by the Harvard School of Government found that PR systems tend to favour extreme right-wing parties and often promote xenophobia and nationalism. In my experience people who claim they want PR are usually left wing, and don't really understand PR. As I said previously, every EU state uses some form of PR, that should be warning enough. No Red. I am not like you, I don't fear each element of the public having their say. UKIP would have 83 seats out of 650 that's 13%. I actually think under PR UKIP might get even more seats, if as you think the majority really do want Brexit. What I object to is your bids to stop democracy after it achieved what you wanted. That prospect terrifies me. The idea that Brexiters would sell even the right to vote in order to keep Brexit. Why should EU states using PR worry us. Most of these countries are peaceful and are doing economically better than us. Its easy to point at riots in France and ignore the fact that the vast majority live peacefully. I think PR allows right wing parties more of a say, but their extreme desires often get watered down in the PR negotiations of government. All this is as it should be with each group getting a say according to the support they receive. I know you'll never believe me, but if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it. But the evidence is getting clearer every day that they don't. Are you running behind time, UKIP are now a nonentity? |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 19:07:07 GMT
ok i must have misunderstood you when you posted this....
But had he counted the numbers (and he's been told this many times) he would know in votes terms it got anything but.
now forgive me if i misunderstood your point to jonsky , but i would say the GE 2019 was the biggest endorsement of leave under fptp , whereas in your reply to jonsky you tried to rubbish that statement by reducing the argument down to a head count in terms of individual votes when fptp doesnt work that way .
Jonksy was trying to suggest it was a massive voting endorsement. My point was it was anything but. it was under the system we use , which is as you know FPTP. If you dont like fptp and the outcomes it produces , dont blow its trumpet when the argument suits and decry it when it doesnt.
I dont recall anyone moaning about tony blairs landslide victory in 2001 , where he won a landslide on the lowest post war uk general election turnout. Indeed , its was hailed as a triumph then and now and massive endorsement of his and new labours policies. Yet he acheived less of the vote than boris did in 2019 , on something like 20 % of the total electorate.
...but when boris did it in 2019 ,you say its not a massive endorsement of the tories and thier brexit policy? Im confused again here old son. You appear to want it all ways.
I repeat again , i dont support fptp , but under the anti democratic system in use , we grudgingly accept a landslide on something like 43 % of the vote is a massive voting endorsement.
If you want a voting headcount and change of the rules , then get a proportional system in place first .
|
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 19:11:47 GMT
If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. Ever considered that it is you that wishes to overturn democracy?. We currently have a Government who was elected by a landslide with a mandate to leave the EU and not have another referendum. Now you want the policy of the elected government to be overthrown by someone (yougov, Ipsos MORI, comres) who is not elected by anyone. I know that the EU is not very big on democracy, but such a blatant bypass does take your breath away. This isn't a very good argument. It fails at every turn. You have already had the landslide thing explained a dozen times. MORI etc are not political they merely give data. You don't know the EU is not big on democracy, you just parrot it. And finally your decision to deny people a second referendum is based on something that happened 3 years ago and even that is wrong. Yes I have considered me in the equation. I never stop doing so. Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 19:17:32 GMT
This has been much discussed, but on balance I think it was an issue that deserved a referendum. However what you would have been voting for at the time would not be anything like what you ended up with. This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. Indeed. If ever anyone made a better argument for allowing future votes, I have yet to hear it. |
|
|
|
Post by colbops on Oct 23, 2022 19:31:45 GMT
This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. Indeed. If ever anyone made a better argument for allowing future votes, I have yet to hear it. Quite right. Thankfully future votes are enshrined in law and we can rest easy knowing we will get one every 5 years as a minimum |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 20:05:42 GMT
This has been much discussed, but on balance I think it was an issue that deserved a referendum. However what you would have been voting for at the time would not be anything like what you ended up with. This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 20:09:47 GMT
This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. I think it was just shorthand Red. You are becoming paranoid. And a very unpleasant soul TBH. |
|
|
|
Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 20:26:19 GMT
You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. I think it was just shorthand Red. You are becoming paranoid. And a very unpleasant soul TBH. I am seriously perplexed at such a reaction. What exactly do you find so offensive? |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 20:41:41 GMT
I think it was just shorthand Red. You are becoming paranoid. And a very unpleasant soul TBH. I am seriously perplexed at such a reaction. What exactly do you find so offensive? I doubt you are. But over the whole forum you have gone from being the guy who I would be pleased to buy a beer for, to a far right nasty heartless git I would avoid like the plague. Perhaps you have just been venting your spleen or caught in the flood, but its not nice to see. |
|
