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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 20:43:29 GMT
I am seriously perplexed at such a reaction. What exactly do you find so offensive? I doubt you are. But over the whole forum you have gone from being the guy who I would be pleased to buy a beer for, to a far right nasty heartless git I would avoid like the plague. Perhaps you have just been venting your spleen or caught in the flood, but its not nice to see. LOL, pleased to offend. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Oct 23, 2022 20:47:59 GMT
Ive known redreckam longer than you zany hes Always been a Redneck
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 20:52:19 GMT
Ive known redreckam longer than you zany hes Always been a Redneck A Redneck! Tell me TTL, what in your opinion is a Redneck? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 23, 2022 21:11:28 GMT
This has been the problem with the EU, we voted to stay in in 75 and what we voted for at the time is nothing like what we ended up with. You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. Which was the point. The vote we had in 75 was always held to be permission to transform that into the EU which was absolutely nothing like that for which we voted. ZG seemed to be saying that the Brexit we got was nothing like the Brexit that was expected. I was merely pointing out how that is nothing new in EU history. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 23, 2022 21:19:11 GMT
Ever considered that it is you that wishes to overturn democracy?. We currently have a Government who was elected by a landslide with a mandate to leave the EU and not have another referendum. Now you want the policy of the elected government to be overthrown by someone (yougov, Ipsos MORI, comres) who is not elected by anyone. I know that the EU is not very big on democracy, but such a blatant bypass does take your breath away. This isn't a very good argument. It fails at every turn. You have already had the landslide thing explained a dozen times. MORI etc are not political they merely give data. You don't know the EU is not big on democracy, you just parrot it. And finally your decision to deny people a second referendum is based on something that happened 3 years ago and even that is wrong. Yes I have considered me in the equation. I never stop doing so. Across the globe I have seen too many folks surrender democracy to get what they want today, only to find the democracy they gave up was in the end more important than the thing they so wanted. Sorry but that is nonsense. You want to give power to some unaccountable outside organisation (yougov, MORI etc) to overthrow the policies of the elected government - if that is not an undemocratic action I don't know what is. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Oct 23, 2022 21:40:31 GMT
You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. Which was the point. The vote we had in 75 was always held to be permission to transform that into the EU which was absolutely nothing like that for which we voted. ZG seemed to be saying that the Brexit we got was nothing like the Brexit that was expected. I was merely pointing out how that is nothing new in EU history. A t |
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Post by totheleft3 on Oct 23, 2022 21:43:48 GMT
Ive known redreckam longer than you zany hes Always been a Redneck A Redneck! Tell me TTL, what in your opinion is a Redneck? A typical American Tea party member |
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Post by colbops on Oct 23, 2022 21:45:47 GMT
You surprise me Sandy. In 1975 were asked if we wanted to remain in the non-political and non-centralized EEC, or Common Market. Nothing to do with the EU. Which was the point. The vote we had in 75 was always held to be permission to transform that into the EU which was absolutely nothing like that for which we voted. ZG seemed to be saying that the Brexit we got was nothing like the Brexit that was expected. I was merely pointing out how that is nothing new in EU history. I'm always a bit bemused when I see this 'in 1975' argument. There were quite a few general elections between then and the formation of the EU, most notably the 1992 general election, where the Conservatives stood, in no small part, on what they'd negotiated up to that point. They set out their plans to get the single market in place, as well as a host of other priorities they'd focus on. Since they set out their agenda in their 1992 election campaign and manifesto, and were then invited to form a government based on their election performance, they had a mandate to do what they went on to do. They weren't relying on anything '1975' related at that point. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 21:48:14 GMT
I doubt you are. But over the whole forum you have gone from being the guy who I would be pleased to buy a beer for, to a far right nasty heartless git I would avoid like the plague. Perhaps you have just been venting your spleen or caught in the flood, but its not nice to see. LOL, pleased to offend. I'm sure you are. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 23:17:52 GMT
Which was the point. The vote we had in 75 was always held to be permission to transform that into the EU which was absolutely nothing like that for which we voted. ZG seemed to be saying that the Brexit we got was nothing like the Brexit that was expected. I was merely pointing out how that is nothing new in EU history. I'm always a bit bemused when I see this 'in 1975' argument. There were quite a few general elections between then and the formation of the EU, most notably the 1992 general election, where the Conservatives stood, in no small part, on what they'd negotiated up to that point. They set out their plans to get the single market in place, as well as a host of other priorities they'd focus on. Since they set out their agenda in their 1992 election campaign and manifesto, and were then invited to form a government based on their election performance, they had a mandate to do what they went on to do. They weren't relying on anything '1975' related at that point. That's very true, but lets not pretend that the true extent of EU membership was not hidden from the UK electorate. Heath lied through his teeth in 1972, Wilson although we're told he was not keen on the European experiment, also lied. And Major, well he didn't even bother lying to the electorate, he just said referendums are unhelpful and handed the UK to the EU. For which the pro EU establishment awarded the treacherous bastard with a knighthood. Incidentally, in 1992 Major said, 'Referendums are unhelpful'. Yet in 2016 he demanded a second referendum. Hypocritical wanker. |
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Post by colbops on Oct 23, 2022 23:36:55 GMT
I'm always a bit bemused when I see this 'in 1975' argument. There were quite a few general elections between then and the formation of the EU, most notably the 1992 general election, where the Conservatives stood, in no small part, on what they'd negotiated up to that point. They set out their plans to get the single market in place, as well as a host of other priorities they'd focus on. Since they set out their agenda in their 1992 election campaign and manifesto, and were then invited to form a government based on their election performance, they had a mandate to do what they went on to do. They weren't relying on anything '1975' related at that point. That's very true, but lets not pretend that the true extent of EU membership was not hidden from the UK electorate. Heath lied through his teeth in 1972, Wilson although we're told he was not keen on the European experiment, also lied. And Major, well he didn't even bother lying to the electorate, he just said referendums are unhelpful and handed the UK to the EU. For which the pro EU establishment awarded the treacherous bastard with a knighthood. Incidentally, in 1992 Major said, 'Referendums are unhelpful'. Yet in 2016 he demanded a second referendum. Hypocritical wanker. To be fair, he was absolutely right the first time. Referenda are not particularly helpful in a representative democracy. They are used in an extremely cynical way to manipulate a desired result and shut down an argument/debate. When something goes wrong, like it did in the brexit referendum, it creates chaos. I live in hope that politicians have re-learned that they are a mistake and we never have another. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 23:47:46 GMT
That's very true, but lets not pretend that the true extent of EU membership was not hidden from the UK electorate. Heath lied through his teeth in 1972, Wilson although we're told he was not keen on the European experiment, also lied. And Major, well he didn't even bother lying to the electorate, he just said referendums are unhelpful and handed the UK to the EU. For which the pro EU establishment awarded the treacherous bastard with a knighthood. Incidentally, in 1992 Major said, 'Referendums are unhelpful'. Yet in 2016 he demanded a second referendum. Hypocritical wanker. To be fair, he was absolutely right the first time. Referenda are not particularly helpful in a representative democracy. They are used in an extremely cynical way to manipulate a desired result and shut down an argument/debate. When something goes wrong, like it did in the brexit referendum, it creates chaos. I live in hope that politicians have re-learned that they are a mistake and we never have another. No, you're wrong. If you believe in representative democracy, then referendums are very helpful. However, as the EU have shown us, referendums become cynical when the losing side constantly demand another and another referendum until the desired result is achieved. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 24, 2022 6:33:10 GMT
To be fair, he was absolutely right the first time. Referenda are not particularly helpful in a representative democracy. They are used in an extremely cynical way to manipulate a desired result and shut down an argument/debate. When something goes wrong, like it did in the brexit referendum, it creates chaos. I live in hope that politicians have re-learned that they are a mistake and we never have another. No, you're wrong. If you believe in representative democracy, then referendums are very helpful. However, as the EU have shown us, referendums become cynical when the losing side constantly demand another and another referendum until the desired result is achieved. I am also a supporter of a certain amount of direct democracy through referenda. But I do think people should be treated as more intelligent and given options as to what they want, rather than a straight YES NO question. By example. A straight Y/N question on HS2 could become. Do you want HS2 between X and Y and or Y and Z Do you want the 120mph trains costing £40 billion pounds or 90mph trains at £28Bn ( see travel times below) Giving the public a far better say. |
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Post by Toreador on Oct 24, 2022 6:40:58 GMT
Which was the point. The vote we had in 75 was always held to be permission to transform that into the EU which was absolutely nothing like that for which we voted. ZG seemed to be saying that the Brexit we got was nothing like the Brexit that was expected. I was merely pointing out how that is nothing new in EU history. I'm always a bit bemused when I see this 'in 1975' argument. There were quite a few general elections between then and the formation of the EU, most notably the 1992 general election, where the Conservatives stood, in no small part, on what they'd negotiated up to that point. They set out their plans to get the single market in place, as well as a host of other priorities they'd focus on. Since they set out their agenda in their 1992 election campaign and manifesto, and were then invited to form a government based on their election performance, they had a mandate to do what they went on to do. They weren't relying on anything '1975' related at that point. You are talking about what politicians want, not what the people want. That is not democracy. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 24, 2022 6:41:41 GMT
No, you're wrong. If you believe in representative democracy, then referendums are very helpful. However, as the EU have shown us, referendums become cynical when the losing side constantly demand another and another referendum until the desired result is achieved. I am also a supporter of a certain amount of direct democracy through referenda. But I do think people should be treated as more intelligent and given options as to what they want, rather than a straight YES NO question. By example. A straight Y/N question on HS2 could become. Do you want HS2 between X and Y and or Y and Z Do you want the 120mph trains costing £40 billion pounds or 90mph trains at £28Bn ( see travel times below)
Giving the public a far better say. What I find as nothing more than a hypocritical croc of shit by those who support the eu and how we arrived there never ever want to talk about document FCO 30/1048. Maybe you could explain why is that? |
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