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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 14:47:14 GMT
Im not really getting your point to me.
Im highlighting to my delusional friend zany the amount of times in recent years brexiters have won votes. Where does the 2011 av referendum fit into this discussion ?
im also struggling to understand your conflciting views on FPTP.
in this thread here , you appear to be telling another member that brexit isnt legitimate because the numbers dont match the end result of the fptp political stitich up in the GE2019.
now you appear to be endorsing fptp in this thread because of 2011 , rubbishing your earlier point in another thread?
Sorry my friend , you appear to be all over the place .
Not at all. I support the right of the UK electorate to make mistakes in fair votes. And although backing FPTP was a mistake, we have to accept it as their choice with what directly follows from it. Making mistakes is in the eye of the beholder in terms of your political view.
You arent addressing my point though which is one minute you claim the uk voted for fptp in 2011 ,so have to suck it up , the next , trying to invaldate the 2019 general election in terms of brexit support because you cant accept the result under fptp.
Im confused mate. Or dont you even know what point you are trying and failing to make?
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 14:52:17 GMT
How many polls can be wrong. And how big does the gap need to be before you acknowledge them. Currently Wrong to leave 52% Right to leave 35% here's the problem with those figures. it's not that they're wrong it's that they miss a key point: depth of feeling For complex reasons many Brexiters are passionate 'would shoot their own dog' to get Brexit voters who won't let any other consideration (like what's best for the country) change them from voting for what they see as the the spoken word of God Many Remainers are of the 'well if you ask me I'd rather have remained but I care more about X, Y and Z' persuasion. Hence so many faced with Boris+Brexit or Corbyn+Rethink chose Boris+Brexit. It's real politik Good point, I think it will be a little longer before sanity returns. There has been so much other stuff thrown at us since 2016 that the Brexit effect is sufficiently muddled to allow arguments in its favour to continue. However what you describe is quite frightening, a sort of Trumpian nationalism in which any lie can be believed, any excuse accepted so long as Brexit wins. There is also a nasty form of nationalism creeping in, in which we are not proud to be British but nationalistic and anti foreigner. We have seen this in the past and its not pretty. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 23, 2022 14:52:37 GMT
Not at all. I support the right of the UK electorate to make mistakes in fair votes. And although backing FPTP was a mistake, we have to accept it as their choice with what directly follows from it. Making mistakes is in the eye of the beholder in terms of your political view. You arent addressing my point though which is one minute you claim the uk voted for fptp in 2011 ,so have to suck it up , the next , trying to invaldate the 2019 general election in terms of brexit support because you cant accept the result under fptp. Im confused mate. Or dont you even know what point you are trying and failing to make?
I have never tried to invalidate the result of the 2019 General Election. Very much the opposite. So yes you are confused. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 14:57:59 GMT
Making mistakes is in the eye of the beholder in terms of your political view. You arent addressing my point though which is one minute you claim the uk voted for fptp in 2011 ,so have to suck it up , the next , trying to invaldate the 2019 general election in terms of brexit support because you cant accept the result under fptp. Im confused mate. Or dont you even know what point you are trying and failing to make?
I have never tried to invalidate the result of the 2019 General Election. Very much the opposite. So yes you are confused. ok i must have misunderstood you when you posted this....
But had he counted the numbers (and he's been told this many times) he would know in votes terms it got anything but.
now forgive me if i misunderstood your point to jonsky , but i would say the GE 2019 was the biggest endorsement of leave under fptp , whereas in your reply to jonsky you tried to rubbish that statement by reducing the argument down to a head count in terms of individual votes when fptp doesnt work that way .
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 15:10:17 GMT
So now even proportional representation is a threat to Brexit. A system where the biggest majority would have a say is a threat to Brexit. Perhaps we should introduce martial law to prevent lefties getting a say. If the 2015 UK general election had been held under a PR system, UKIP would have been the third-largest party in Parliament, with 83 seats, instead of one. I would have thought you found this worrying ZG? I'm sure people who today claim they want PR would find the realities of it not quite what they expected. Indeed, a study by the Harvard School of Government found that PR systems tend to favour extreme right-wing parties and often promote xenophobia and nationalism. In my experience people who claim they want PR are usually left wing, and don't really understand PR. As I said previously, every EU state uses some form of PR, that should be warning enough. No Red. I am not like you, I don't fear each element of the public having their say. UKIP would have 83 seats out of 650 that's 13%. I actually think under PR UKIP might get even more seats, if as you think the majority really do want Brexit. What I object to is your bids to stop democracy after it achieved what you wanted. That prospect terrifies me. The idea that Brexiters would sell even the right to vote in order to keep Brexit. Why should EU states using PR worry us. Most of these countries are peaceful and are doing economically better than us. Its easy to point at riots in France and ignore the fact that the vast majority live peacefully. I think PR allows right wing parties more of a say, but their extreme desires often get watered down in the PR negotiations of government. All this is as it should be with each group getting a say according to the support they receive. I know you'll never believe me, but if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it. But the evidence is getting clearer every day that they don't. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 23, 2022 15:14:51 GMT
If the 2015 UK general election had been held under a PR system, UKIP would have been the third-largest party in Parliament, with 83 seats, instead of one. I would have thought you found this worrying ZG? I'm sure people who today claim they want PR would find the realities of it not quite what they expected. Indeed, a study by the Harvard School of Government found that PR systems tend to favour extreme right-wing parties and often promote xenophobia and nationalism. In my experience people who claim they want PR are usually left wing, and don't really understand PR. As I said previously, every EU state uses some form of PR, that should be warning enough. No Red. I am not like you, I don't fear each element of the public having their say. UKIP would have 83 seats out of 650 that's 13%. I actually think under PR UKIP might get even more seats, if as you think the majority really do want Brexit. What I object to is your bids to stop democracy after it achieved what you wanted. That prospect terrifies me. The idea that Brexiters would sell even the right to vote in order to keep Brexit. Why should EU states using PR worry us. Most of these countries are peaceful and are doing economically better than us. Its easy to point at riots in France and ignore the fact that the vast majority live peacefully. I think PR allows right wing parties more of a say, but their extreme desires often get watered down in the PR negotiations of government. All this is as it should be with each group getting a say according to the support they receive. I know you'll never believe me, but if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it. But the evidence is getting clearer every day that they don't. What evidence? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 15:29:07 GMT
If the 2015 UK general election had been held under a PR system, UKIP would have been the third-largest party in Parliament, with 83 seats, instead of one. I would have thought you found this worrying ZG? I'm sure people who today claim they want PR would find the realities of it not quite what they expected. Indeed, a study by the Harvard School of Government found that PR systems tend to favour extreme right-wing parties and often promote xenophobia and nationalism. In my experience people who claim they want PR are usually left wing, and don't really understand PR. As I said previously, every EU state uses some form of PR, that should be warning enough. No Red. I am not like you, I don't fear each element of the public having their say. UKIP would have 83 seats out of 650 that's 13%. I actually think under PR UKIP might get even more seats, if as you think the majority really do want Brexit. What I object to is your bids to stop democracy after it achieved what you wanted. That prospect terrifies me. The idea that Brexiters would sell even the right to vote in order to keep Brexit. Why should EU states using PR worry us. Most of these countries are peaceful and are doing economically better than us. Its easy to point at riots in France and ignore the fact that the vast majority live peacefully. I think PR allows right wing parties more of a say, but their extreme desires often get watered down in the PR negotiations of government. All this is as it should be with each group getting a say according to the support they receive. I know you'll never believe me, but if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it. But the evidence is getting clearer every day that they don't. LOL, how in the wide wide world of sport can you accuse me of attempting to stop democracy, then admit you refuse to accept the referendum result? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 16:35:49 GMT
No Red. I am not like you, I don't fear each element of the public having their say. UKIP would have 83 seats out of 650 that's 13%. I actually think under PR UKIP might get even more seats, if as you think the majority really do want Brexit. What I object to is your bids to stop democracy after it achieved what you wanted. That prospect terrifies me. The idea that Brexiters would sell even the right to vote in order to keep Brexit. Why should EU states using PR worry us. Most of these countries are peaceful and are doing economically better than us. Its easy to point at riots in France and ignore the fact that the vast majority live peacefully. I think PR allows right wing parties more of a say, but their extreme desires often get watered down in the PR negotiations of government. All this is as it should be with each group getting a say according to the support they receive. I know you'll never believe me, but if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it. But the evidence is getting clearer every day that they don't. ; how in the wide wide world of sport can you accuse me of attempting to stop democracy, B; then admit you refuse to accept the referendum result? A; Because you are one of those who refuses to consider a second referendum after getting the result you wanted. B; Because I have accepted the result of the first referendum. You need that strawman because you have no real argument against what I'm actually saying. I keep repeating that I think the country has changed its mind and that this view is supported by dozens of polls, each seeing an increase in those unhappy with what they got from Brexit. In return you have nothing to support your view that brexit is still popular, so you can do nothing other than deny the evidence before your eyes. If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. |
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Post by colbops on Oct 23, 2022 16:41:14 GMT
A; how in the wide wide world of sport can you accuse me of attempting to stop democracy, B; then admit you refuse to accept the referendum result? A; Because you are one of those who refuses to consider a second referendum after getting the result you wanted. B; Because I have accepted the result of the first referendum. You need that strawman because you have no real argument against what I'm actually saying. I keep repeating that I think the country has changed its mind and that this view is supported by dozens of polls, each seeing an increase in those unhappy with what they got from Brexit. In return you have nothing to support your view that brexit is still popular, so you can do nothing other than deny the evidence before your eyes. If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. You are negotiating with the wrong people zany. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 16:59:14 GMT
A; how in the wide wide world of sport can you accuse me of attempting to stop democracy, B; then admit you refuse to accept the referendum result? A; Because you are one of those who refuses to consider a second referendum after getting the result you wanted. B; Because I have accepted the result of the first referendum. You need that strawman because you have no real argument against what I'm actually saying. I keep repeating that I think the country has changed its mind and that this view is supported by dozens of polls, each seeing an increase in those unhappy with what they got from Brexit. In return you have nothing to support your view that brexit is still popular, so you can do nothing other than deny the evidence before your eyes. If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. Why on earth would anyone want a second referendum after getting the result they wanted? ZG, you previously said, and I quote... ..." if I really thought the majority of UK citizens still wanted Brexit I would accept it" Therefor you obviously refuse to accept the referendum result. I'm not interested in a few malcontent lefties who never wanted a referendum and have never accepted the result. All they are doing is putting their disdain of democracy front and centre. The only people who ever want second referendums are the losers. Btw ZG, what are your thoughts of the UK being handed to the EU without a referendum or the consent of the people. How democratic was that? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 17:05:01 GMT
A; Because you are one of those who refuses to consider a second referendum after getting the result you wanted. B; Because I have accepted the result of the first referendum. You need that strawman because you have no real argument against what I'm actually saying. I keep repeating that I think the country has changed its mind and that this view is supported by dozens of polls, each seeing an increase in those unhappy with what they got from Brexit. In return you have nothing to support your view that brexit is still popular, so you can do nothing other than deny the evidence before your eyes. If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. You are negotiating with the wrong people zany. I'm just chattin. No one accept me ever changes their position on here. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 23, 2022 17:14:56 GMT
If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. Ever considered that it is you that wishes to overturn democracy?. We currently have a Government who was elected by a landslide with a mandate to leave the EU and not have another referendum. Now you want the policy of the elected government to be overthrown by someone (yougov, Ipsos MORI, comres) who is not elected by anyone. I know that the EU is not very big on democracy, but such a blatant bypass does take your breath away. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 23, 2022 17:17:01 GMT
I have never tried to invalidate the result of the 2019 General Election. Very much the opposite. So yes you are confused. ok i must have misunderstood you when you posted this....
But had he counted the numbers (and he's been told this many times) he would know in votes terms it got anything but.
now forgive me if i misunderstood your point to jonsky , but i would say the GE 2019 was the biggest endorsement of leave under fptp , whereas in your reply to jonsky you tried to rubbish that statement by reducing the argument down to a head count in terms of individual votes when fptp doesnt work that way .
Jonksy was trying to suggest it was a massive voting endorsement. My point was it was anything but. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 17:22:50 GMT
A; Because you are one of those who refuses to consider a second referendum after getting the result you wanted. B; Because I have accepted the result of the first referendum. You need that strawman because you have no real argument against what I'm actually saying. I keep repeating that I think the country has changed its mind and that this view is supported by dozens of polls, each seeing an increase in those unhappy with what they got from Brexit. In return you have nothing to support your view that brexit is still popular, so you can do nothing other than deny the evidence before your eyes. If you support democracy and believe Brexit is still the popular choice why are you against having that confirmed with a second vote. How long must the polls keep saying the opposite of what you claim before you admit you are wrong and let democracy take its course. Why on earth would anyone want a second referendum after getting the result they wanted? Because they believe in democracy. You are confusing your tenses. I say STILL wanted Brexit. I.E I recognise they did at the time of the referendum, but believe they have changed their minds. I know you are not interested. I also know that as you run out of space to dodge you will get progressively more antagonistic and rude. That's the given path you follow. The people who want second referendums are those who lost plus those who have changed their minds, when that number is larger than those who originally won then democracy (The voice of the people) says you should have another vote. If Labour win the next election, you wont like it but you will accept it as democratic. However, in the future when you feel enough people have changed their minds you will want the right to vote to change the original one. This is so crucial to democracy has a built in mechanism that gives the public the right to change there minds every 4 years. But you don't want that democracy on Brexit, which is why I say you are willing to sell even your right to democracy to keep what you have won. This has been much discussed, but on balance I think it was an issue that deserved a referendum. However what you would have been voting for at the time would not be anything like what you ended up with. I think we should have referendums on most major changes (HS2 springs to mind) or (How should we repay the money we borrowed to get through Covid) |
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Post by Orac on Oct 23, 2022 17:22:58 GMT
So now even proportional representation is a threat to Brexit. That's not what he said - in fact he said the opposite PR typically allows a crusty, unaccountable (un-sackable) bureaucracy to run the system. Such a system wouldn't have allowed a referendum. |
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