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Post by om15 on Oct 23, 2022 11:38:24 GMT
Well, Richard Tice has the ball rolling, he is preparing for a general election within weeks, with 500 candidates, here he is
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Post by sandypine on Oct 23, 2022 11:47:30 GMT
But those committed to Brexit won. Just as Heath won in 1970 being committed to joining when Labour were not so committed and had many reservations and red lines and the polls indicated low public support. It is the way the Cookie crumbles. We cannot say Heath had a mandate to join and then say Johnson did not have a mandate to complete Brexit. What you keep missing is that the people have changed their minds. In 2016 people wanted Brexit. From 2017 onwards they didn't. In 2019 people wanted the Conservatives in 2022 they don't. That's what happens. Once again you only believe they have changed their minds becasue of polls and if polls were right Remain would have won. Polls are an indication of public opinion they are by no means a clear measure of public opinion. If we went by polls to create policy then we could rejoin the EU we would definitely bring back hanging and we would definitely stop the small boats in the channel by hook or by crook. Of course legal immigration in polls is tricky because the EU muddies the waters with free movement. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 23, 2022 11:50:56 GMT
Yes as I have said before. the 2019 election is the only legitimate mandate for Brexit. But look back that's not what Jonksy was saying it was. Can you expand on that Steve. I am a remainer, but I voted Tory to make sure Corbyn didn't get in. Which seemed the greater evil to me. Which means you voted to accept all the Tories stood for in their manifesto, just as some Brexiteers voted for Labour as they could not bring themselves to vote Tory. Democracy relies on people making such judgements all the time. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 23, 2022 11:57:00 GMT
Lets just recap what brexiters have won over the last 6 years for my delusional friend zany and his mythical silent remain majority graphs. 2015 general election , brexiters win by backing cameron to hold a brexit ref. Labour may i remind you opposed democracy. 2016 brexit referendum , brextiters win. 2017 general election ,both main parties promise to back brexit and brexiters win again. 2019 european elections , brexiters win majority depsite bbc portraying it as a remain win much to everyones amusement. 2019 general election....brexiters win. all the while centrists like zany tell us there is a remain majority........ FFS! And both parties in 2015 stated quite clearly that the EU was not working in the best interest of the UK and needed reform. It has not reformed yet some politicians are keen to see us back in. It seems to be a bit of a game, perhaps we are well shot of it. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 13:34:17 GMT
What you keep missing is that the people have changed their minds. In 2016 people wanted Brexit. From 2017 onwards they didn't. In 2019 people wanted the Conservatives in 2022 they don't. That's what happens. Once again you only believe they have changed their minds becasue of polls and if polls were right Remain would have won. Polls are an indication of public opinion they are by no means a clear measure of public opinion. If we went by polls to create policy then we could rejoin the EU we would definitely bring back hanging and we would definitely stop the small boats in the channel by hook or by crook. Of course legal immigration in polls is tricky because the EU muddies the waters with free movement. How many polls can be wrong. And how big does the gap need to be before you acknowledge them. Currently Wrong to leave 52% Right to leave 35% |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 13:36:30 GMT
Well, Richard Tice has the ball rolling, he is preparing for a general election within weeks, with 500 candidates, here he is Oh goody. Split the Tory party that's already split. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:37:21 GMT
Once again you only believe they have changed their minds becasue of polls and if polls were right Remain would have won. Polls are an indication of public opinion they are by no means a clear measure of public opinion. If we went by polls to create policy then we could rejoin the EU we would definitely bring back hanging and we would definitely stop the small boats in the channel by hook or by crook. Of course legal immigration in polls is tricky because the EU muddies the waters with free movement. How many polls can be wrong. And how big does the gap need to be before you acknowledge them. Currently Wrong to leave 52% Right to leave 35% the only time a poll matters is whe nyou walk into the ballot box and cast that vote. 5 times over the last six years , brexiters have won , while remainers lost.
If the uk rejoins the eu , we will be the laughing stock of the world as you well know. We will loose any credibility , vladimir putin will be telling westmisnter to sit quiet while he talks to their bosses in brussells that sort of thing. African countries will laugh and say the same.
We will look as though we have crawled through the mud to the french and germans begging for forgiveness.
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:40:36 GMT
Well, Richard Tice has the ball rolling, he is preparing for a general election within weeks, with 500 candidates, here he is Oh goody. Split the Tory party that's already split.
its looking to me labour havent learned any lessons , and need another electoral kicking at the next election.
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 13:43:32 GMT
The thought of voting Reform UK is appealing, apart from one major issue. Richard Tice is a keen supporter of PR, and he knows it alienates many people who may otherwise be sympathetic to Reform UK.
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Post by thomas on Oct 23, 2022 13:50:41 GMT
The thought of voting Reform UK is appealing, apart from one major issue. Richard Tice is a keen supporter of PR, and he knows it alienates many people who may otherwise be sympathetic to Reform UK. i would have thought that a plus. England is the only country in western europe , and the yookay itself , that doesnt have pr , yet you seem to be the one constantly in political meltdown. So dont know if there is a correlation or not.
i would have thought making your vote count more , and keeping the two main parties out of power , or at least out of a majority , would be a plus.
Still , im sure you know better then richard tice and many others.
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 14:04:56 GMT
The thought of voting Reform UK is appealing, apart from one major issue. Richard Tice is a keen supporter of PR, and he knows it alienates many people who may otherwise be sympathetic to Reform UK. i would have thought that a plus. England is the only country in western europe , and the yookay itself , that doesnt have pr , yet you seem to be the one constantly in political meltdown. So dont know if there is a correlation or not.
i would have thought making your vote count more , and keeping the two main parties out of power , or at least out of a majority , would be a plus.
Still , im sure you know better then richard tice and many others.
You are correct, every EU state uses some for of PR which should ring alarm bells. If we had PR there isn't a chance in a million we would have left the EU. The EU love PR because it's a system that promotes weak coalitions who rarely agree on anything and spend years arguing, FPTP 'usually' provides strong majority governments that get things done. Yes of course you are now going to throw the cock up that is this government at me, fair enough. But this government is the exception, not the rule. I certainly wouldn't look at the goings on over the past few months as a reason to change our system to PR. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 23, 2022 14:17:59 GMT
i would have thought that a plus. England is the only country in western europe , and the yookay itself , that doesnt have pr , yet you seem to be the one constantly in political meltdown. So dont know if there is a correlation or not.
i would have thought making your vote count more , and keeping the two main parties out of power , or at least out of a majority , would be a plus.
Still , im sure you know better then richard tice and many others.
You are correct, every EU state uses some for of PR which should ring alarm bells. If we had PR there isn't a chance in a million we would have left the EU. The EU love PR because it's a system that promotes weak coalitions who rarely agree on anything and spend years arguing, FPTP 'usually' provides strong majority governments that get things done. Yes of course you are now going to throw the cock up that is this government at me, fair enough. But this government is the exception, not the rule. I certainly wouldn't look at the goings on over the past few months as a reason to change our system to PR. So now even proportional representation is a threat to Brexit. A system where the biggest majority would have a say is a threat to Brexit. Perhaps we should introduce martial law to prevent lefties getting a say. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 23, 2022 14:38:12 GMT
Once again you only believe they have changed their minds becasue of polls and if polls were right Remain would have won. Polls are an indication of public opinion they are by no means a clear measure of public opinion. If we went by polls to create policy then we could rejoin the EU we would definitely bring back hanging and we would definitely stop the small boats in the channel by hook or by crook. Of course legal immigration in polls is tricky because the EU muddies the waters with free movement. How many polls can be wrong. And how big does the gap need to be before you acknowledge them. Currently Wrong to leave 52% Right to leave 35% here's the problem with those figures. it's not that they're wrong it's that they miss a key point: depth of feeling For complex reasons many Brexiters are passionate 'would shoot their own dog' to get Brexit voters who won't let any other consideration (like what's best for the country) change them from voting for what they see as the the spoken word of God Many Remainers are of the 'well if you ask me I'd rather have remained but I care more about X, Y and Z' persuasion. Hence so many faced with Boris+Brexit or Corbyn+Rethink chose Boris+Brexit. It's real politik |
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Post by Steve on Oct 23, 2022 14:40:16 GMT
You actually miss a key vote. In 2011 (by a massive majority) the UK endorses First Past the Post. That means that although most in 2019 voted for parties of the 'think again' persuasion on Brexit the public has to accept that the process the public wanted gave a massive legal majority in Parliament to Brexiters People could write volumes about that election. From idiot squeaky woman calling for it having been played by Farage, (dyed in the wool Brexiter) Corbyn backing it and to the dynamics of what many incl me see as an 'anyone but that Marxist Corbyn' vote by most of the electorate. But because of that 2011 referendum the result and resulting exit has to be accepted. Im not really getting your point to me.
Im highlighting to my delusional friend zany the amount of times in recent years brexiters have won votes. Where does the 2011 av referendum fit into this discussion ?
im also struggling to understand your conflciting views on FPTP.
in this thread here , you appear to be telling another member that brexit isnt legitimate because the numbers dont match the end result of the fptp political stitich up in the GE2019.
now you appear to be endorsing fptp in this thread because of 2011 , rubbishing your earlier point in another thread?
Sorry my friend , you appear to be all over the place .
Not at all. I support the right of the UK electorate to make mistakes in fair votes. And although backing FPTP was a mistake, we have to accept it as their choice with what directly follows from it. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Oct 23, 2022 14:41:29 GMT
You are correct, every EU state uses some for of PR which should ring alarm bells. If we had PR there isn't a chance in a million we would have left the EU. The EU love PR because it's a system that promotes weak coalitions who rarely agree on anything and spend years arguing, FPTP 'usually' provides strong majority governments that get things done. Yes of course you are now going to throw the cock up that is this government at me, fair enough. But this government is the exception, not the rule. I certainly wouldn't look at the goings on over the past few months as a reason to change our system to PR. So now even proportional representation is a threat to Brexit. A system where the biggest majority would have a say is a threat to Brexit. Perhaps we should introduce martial law to prevent lefties getting a say. If the 2015 UK general election had been held under a PR system, UKIP would have been the third-largest party in Parliament, with 83 seats, instead of one. I would have thought you found this worrying ZG? I'm sure people who today claim they want PR would find the realities of it not quite what they expected. Indeed, a study by the Harvard School of Government found that PR systems tend to favour extreme right-wing parties and often promote xenophobia and nationalism. In my experience people who claim they want PR are usually left wing, and don't really understand PR. As I said previously, every EU state uses some form of PR, that should be warning enough. |
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