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Post by dappy on Nov 22, 2022 21:20:22 GMT
I think we should be open to other ways of providing healthcare in the UK Zany. If it can be shown that other models produce better care at the same cost, then we shouldn’t be afraid to copy those as long as the basic tenets that all people living here should have access to good quality healthcare is maintained.
It’s a little difficult to fathom where we are going wrong with our public services. We seem to have as high tax rates as countries like Germany but spend less (and have worse outcomes) on most of the key public services. So where is the money going? OK we ridiculously overspend on defence but that can’t be the whole story.
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Post by zanygame on Nov 22, 2022 21:36:59 GMT
I think we should be open to other ways of providing healthcare in the UK Zany. If it can be shown that other models produce better care at the same cost, then we shouldn’t be afraid to copy those as long as the basic tenets that all people living here should have access to good quality healthcare is maintained. I agree, but before making that decision and spending a fortune changing we should compare what we have properly and not based on the opinion of a few blokes on a forum. We spend less than the Germans as I pointed out. We pay less than 12 other European nations. |
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Post by sword on Nov 22, 2022 23:20:52 GMT
What a crazy simplistic argument. What about inflation and Covid. How many other things are they treating now instead of long term chronic treatments. We all know those are the things that get bumped when other diseases increase. This is a really poor response Pacifico. Really poor. The UK spending on healthcare is among the highest in europe - at some point you have to ask why that spending is not delivering. Your simplistic argument that all the system needs is more money thrown at it just does not work - we have been trying that response now for decades. Just last week the Government chucked another £7 Billion to the NHS with absolutely no idea where it is going to go and what benefits we would see for that money. Much of that cash is going to private contractors thats the problem,my dentist is NHS but its Bupa,its privatisation by stealth,take hospital cleaning,they contracted that out years ago,and we don't spend more we spend less than many Countries. www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/020915/what-country-spends-most-healthcare.asp |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 7:40:00 GMT
The UK spending on healthcare is among the highest in europe - at some point you have to ask why that spending is not delivering. Your simplistic argument that all the system needs is more money thrown at it just does not work - we have been trying that response now for decades. Just last week the Government chucked another £7 Billion to the NHS with absolutely no idea where it is going to go and what benefits we would see for that money. Much of that cash is going to private contractors thats the problem,my dentist is NHS but its Bupa,its privatisation by stealth,take hospital cleaning,they contracted that out years ago,and we don't spend more we spend less than many Countries. www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/020915/what-country-spends-most-healthcare.aspAgreed Sword, but you mustn't keep assuming Pacifico is correct in his claim we are among the highest in europe. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 7:47:23 GMT
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 23, 2022 8:00:11 GMT
Agreed Sword, but you mustn't keep assuming Pacifico is correct in his claim we are among the highest in europe. As I said - the UK spends more than any other country in Europe as a percentage of GDP on Healthcare apart from France, Germany and Austria.  |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 23, 2022 8:03:44 GMT
The UK spending on healthcare is among the highest in europe - at some point you have to ask why that spending is not delivering. Your simplistic argument that all the system needs is more money thrown at it just does not work - we have been trying that response now for decades. Just last week the Government chucked another £7 Billion to the NHS with absolutely no idea where it is going to go and what benefits we would see for that money. Much of that cash is going to private contractors thats the problem,my dentist is NHS but its Bupa,its privatisation by stealth,take hospital cleaning,they contracted that out years ago,and we don't spend more we spend less than many Countries. Theres a good article in todays Telegraph explaining why we spend so much... Dr Clare, a London GP, emailed me to say that she is inundated with patients who could have been treated quite easily. Long delays mean their condition has now deteriorated. They want to work, but they can’t until they have surgery (cataracts, hernia, new knees). In the good old days, Dr Clare used to dictate a referral letter to a named consultant at the local hospital. The patient swiftly received an appointment. Today, the GP is not allowed to refer directly at all. For many specialties, Clare has to use a triage system known as SPA (single point of access). “Someone, maybe an admin person, decides if the patient should be seen and by whom. To access this, I have to work through a complicated series of multiple-choice questions, at the end of which the computer pronounces what sort of specialist will see my patient and asks me if I agree. If I say no, the whole thing is cancelled. So I have to say yes, even if the treatment is inappropriate. The computer trumps my 30 years of experience as a GP.”
Unbelievably, for other specialties Dr Clare is not allowed to refer at all. She must email a department asking for “advice and guidance”. After a delay, which can be a couple of months or more, the person who responds “may have decided to send an appointment to my patient, but usually not”. Clare has had patients with cardiac symptoms rejected and been told to manage them in the community. Even if a patient eventually hits the jackpot and is approved to see a specialist, Clare points to a worrying new phenomenon: there is now a waiting list for the waiting list.Simply throwing more money at a black hole like that is never going to improve things - the whole model is broken |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 8:09:35 GMT
Agreed Sword, but you mustn't keep assuming Pacifico is correct in his claim we are among the highest in europe. As I said - the UK spends more than any other country in Europe as a percentage of GDP on Healthcare apart from France, Germany and Austria. Why do you keep giving it against GDP. Its how much it costs to treat a person (per capita) The fact our productivity is worse than most of Europe is not the fault of the health service and should not be used as basis for the cost of giving health care. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 8:21:47 GMT
Much of that cash is going to private contractors thats the problem,my dentist is NHS but its Bupa,its privatisation by stealth,take hospital cleaning,they contracted that out years ago,and we don't spend more we spend less than many Countries. Theres a good article in todays Telegraph explaining why we spend so much... Dr Clare, a London GP, emailed me to say that she is inundated with patients who could have been treated quite easily. Long delays mean their condition has now deteriorated. They want to work, but they can’t until they have surgery (cataracts, hernia, new knees). In the good old days, Dr Clare used to dictate a referral letter to a named consultant at the local hospital. The patient swiftly received an appointment. Today, the GP is not allowed to refer directly at all. For many specialties, Clare has to use a triage system known as SPA (single point of access). “Someone, maybe an admin person, decides if the patient should be seen and by whom. To access this, I have to work through a complicated series of multiple-choice questions, at the end of which the computer pronounces what sort of specialist will see my patient and asks me if I agree. If I say no, the whole thing is cancelled. So I have to say yes, even if the treatment is inappropriate. The computer trumps my 30 years of experience as a GP.”
Unbelievably, for other specialties Dr Clare is not allowed to refer at all. She must email a department asking for “advice and guidance”. After a delay, which can be a couple of months or more, the person who responds “may have decided to send an appointment to my patient, but usually not”. Clare has had patients with cardiac symptoms rejected and been told to manage them in the community. Even if a patient eventually hits the jackpot and is approved to see a specialist, Clare points to a worrying new phenomenon: there is now a waiting list for the waiting list.Simply throwing more money at a black hole like that is never going to improve things - the whole model is broken Have you any idea why they changed it? I'll tell you, it was because so many GP's used the system to get rid of awkward patients. When my wife worked in Neurology about 1 in 5 people they scanned had no real reason to be there. Worse they were duty bound not to expose people to radiation if it was not necessary, so it fell to them to refuse scans to a person who had been told by their GP they should have some. Its not the way its done that's wrong, its the lack of funds. Lack of funds causes the shuffling of paper, the appointments that do nothing except tick boxes. The system we all recognise as the only way the NHS can avoid penalties for not meeting government numbers. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 23, 2022 8:26:31 GMT
As I said - the UK spends more than any other country in Europe as a percentage of GDP on Healthcare apart from France, Germany and Austria. Why do you keep giving it against GDP. Its how much it costs to treat a person (per capita) The fact our productivity is worse than most of Europe is not the fault of the health service and should not be used as basis for the cost of giving health care. GDP is a more relevant measure. Comparing actual spending is dependent on exchange rates which can, and do, change by the minute for all sorts of unrelated reasons. For example if the BoE increases the base rate more than the ECB the Pound rises against the Euro and 'voila' UK health spending compared to Germany rises..its a pointless way of measuring it. GDP is better as it is not dependent on outside criteria - every country is measured against their own level of wealth. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 23, 2022 8:30:17 GMT
Theres a good article in todays Telegraph explaining why we spend so much... Dr Clare, a London GP, emailed me to say that she is inundated with patients who could have been treated quite easily. Long delays mean their condition has now deteriorated. They want to work, but they can’t until they have surgery (cataracts, hernia, new knees). In the good old days, Dr Clare used to dictate a referral letter to a named consultant at the local hospital. The patient swiftly received an appointment. Today, the GP is not allowed to refer directly at all. For many specialties, Clare has to use a triage system known as SPA (single point of access). “Someone, maybe an admin person, decides if the patient should be seen and by whom. To access this, I have to work through a complicated series of multiple-choice questions, at the end of which the computer pronounces what sort of specialist will see my patient and asks me if I agree. If I say no, the whole thing is cancelled. So I have to say yes, even if the treatment is inappropriate. The computer trumps my 30 years of experience as a GP.”
Unbelievably, for other specialties Dr Clare is not allowed to refer at all. She must email a department asking for “advice and guidance”. After a delay, which can be a couple of months or more, the person who responds “may have decided to send an appointment to my patient, but usually not”. Clare has had patients with cardiac symptoms rejected and been told to manage them in the community. Even if a patient eventually hits the jackpot and is approved to see a specialist, Clare points to a worrying new phenomenon: there is now a waiting list for the waiting list.Simply throwing more money at a black hole like that is never going to improve things - the whole model is broken Have you any idea why they changed it? I'll tell you, it was because so many GP's used the system to get rid of awkward patients. When my wife worked in Neurology about 1 in 5 people they scanned had no real reason to be there. Worse they were duty bound not to expose people to radiation if it was not necessary, so it fell to them to refuse scans to a person who had been told by their GP they should have some. Its not the way its done that's wrong, its the lack of funds.
Lack of funds causes the shuffling of paper, the appointments that do nothing except tick boxes. The system we all recognise as the only way the NHS can avoid penalties for not meeting government numbers. The NHS got another £7 Billion thrown at them last week - what concrete improvements are you expecting to see for that increase in spending? At the moment we are spending record amounts for a service that is going backwards. Just today the NHS announced they were going to become a 'menopause friendly' employer - with staff allowed to work from home if they were suffering. That is going to make the system less productive so service to the customer is only going to get worse. They are continuing to advertise for more Diversity Managers on £70k - despite already the most diverse major employer in the UK. More money is the last thing they need. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Nov 23, 2022 10:02:40 GMT
Just listened to Julia Hearty-Brewer interview Dr Karol Sikora who specialises in oncology and is described as a leading world authority on cancer. She asked him why so many cancer patients are dying in this country, his answer was quite blunt, he said; because the NHS are far more concerned with recruiting diversity managers than they are about cancer patients.
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Post by Handyman on Nov 23, 2022 10:33:25 GMT
Just listened to Julia Hearty-Brewer interview Dr Karol Sikora who specialises in oncology and is described as a leading world authority on cancer. She asked him why so many cancer patients are dying in this country, his answer was quite blunt, he said; because the NHS are far more concerned with recruiting diversity managers than they are about cancer patients. I agree with him, the Government stated the other day that they are going to really prune back many of the non-medical roles in the NHS Trusts, they are basically a waste of our money, the entire NHS needs a total reorganization from top to bottom, it is a money pit we need better value for taxpayers' money, it should have been done years ago. The only way they can possibly meet the huge demand on it is to cut out waste and run it far better than it is now, I did read that some are advocating that Operations should be carried out seven days a week, not five days a week to try and address the long waiting lists, IMO a good idea should have been done years ago. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 19:03:15 GMT
Why do you keep giving it against GDP. Its how much it costs to treat a person (per capita) The fact our productivity is worse than most of Europe is not the fault of the health service and should not be used as basis for the cost of giving health care. GDP is a more relevant measure. Comparing actual spending is dependent on exchange rates which can, and do, change by the minute for all sorts of unrelated reasons. For example if the BoE increases the base rate more than the ECB the Pound rises against the Euro and 'voila' UK health spending compared to Germany rises..its a pointless way of measuring it. GDP is better as it is not dependent on outside criteria - every country is measured against their own level of wealth. We must agree to differ. If you are looking at what health care costs it should be measured in Dollars per human being. That is the least variable method. If you are arguing that many things effect the costs, then that same argument applies to your claim. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 23, 2022 19:10:33 GMT
Have you any idea why they changed it? I'll tell you, it was because so many GP's used the system to get rid of awkward patients. When my wife worked in Neurology about 1 in 5 people they scanned had no real reason to be there. Worse they were duty bound not to expose people to radiation if it was not necessary, so it fell to them to refuse scans to a person who had been told by their GP they should have some. Its not the way its done that's wrong, its the lack of funds.
Lack of funds causes the shuffling of paper, the appointments that do nothing except tick boxes. The system we all recognise as the only way the NHS can avoid penalties for not meeting government numbers. The NHS got another £7 Billion thrown at them last week - what concrete improvements are you expecting to see for that increase in spending? At the moment we are spending record amounts for a service that is going backwards. Just today the NHS announced they were going to become a 'menopause friendly' employer - with staff allowed to work from home if they were suffering. That is going to make the system less productive so service to the customer is only going to get worse. They are continuing to advertise for more Diversity Managers on £70k - despite already the most diverse major employer in the UK. More money is the last thing they need. Concrete improvements? Can you not receive news where you live? Its catch up money for 10 years of austerity for a service expected to provide more every year. I cannot believe you are truly ignorant of all the new treatments, increased longevity, health in later years, cancer treatments, arthritis break throughs, trauma, head injury advances that have become available in the last decade. No one is that oblivious. Diversity managers. How many have they got and what percentage of their budget is that? Menopause friendly? My company is menopause friendly, you ignorance is incredible. Not because you don't know why , but because you think you can scorn it without any understanding. |
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