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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:50:45 GMT
You are being most disingenuous, trying simultaneously to put a notion forward, then denying it when asked to provide your supporting evidence or reasoning. I said this... " But a few things remain clear. Far fewer people currently support the Tories than they did in 2019" To which your literal response was this...." Perhaps because Boris is no longer the leader." This is clearly putting forward as a possible explanation for the loss of support for the Tories the fact that Bozo is no longer leader. I and others have explained why such a suggestion as a plausible reason is highly unlikely to be the cause of the collapse in support for the Tories... Yeah - it's a discussion and this is a discussion forum. You however, seem more interested in simply starting an argument. You mean calling out bullshit in the midst of what could otherwise be an intelligent debate? You put forward the suggestion that the Tories lost their 2019 popularity "perhaps" because Bozo was no longer their leader. When asked to support that idea as part of an intelligent debate, you deny you even suggested it. When I call you out on your disingenuousness, you accuse me of trying to start an argument. No. I am merely asking you to provide your reasoning in support of a suggestion that the Tories would still be as popular as in 2019 with Boris as leader. Which you put forward as a perhaps. On what basis does that contention hold water when all polling of Bozo's personal popularity has shown a steady decline in support for him since then, which was part of the reason they ousted him? To even say that "perhaps" the Tories are less popular than in 2019 because he is no longer their leader requires some sort of logical argument in support of it, which explains away the measured fall in his personal popularity since then. Otherwise it can be dismissed as nonsense and possible wishful thinking. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:53:30 GMT
But has the UK?
Certainly, the current Tories have left the place strewn with broken promises and greater hardship, even the claimed reduced inflation has happened because it rose under their watch...
PS — and the current manifesto shows the undertakings that were given and missed.
We have just in the last week seen Labour dropping their £28 Billion spending pledge, which they reiterated only 3 months ago, by saying circumstances have changed. So if circumstances can change that much in 3 months why are you holding the Tories to account for something they said 5 years ago? Starmer has broken almost every promise he ever made. But at least he is breaking slightly more positive ground on this one in that he is withdrawing the pledge before an election rather than lying about it to get elected. Though it leaves me wondering even more what the hell the point of voting Labour is. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 11, 2024 18:53:56 GMT
Johnson won 2 Mayoral elections in London which is a predominately Labour supporting city - so at some point you have to admit he is popular with the electorate and his popularity can cut across political borders. The idea that he only won in 2019 was because he was up against Corbyn fails at the first hurdle when you remember that Corbyn was very popular himself in the election held just 2 years earlier (getting 40% of the vote). At some point Bozo was indeed popular with the electorate, a great many of whom seemed to support him on the basis that he would be a good laugh down the pub.
As for the 2019 election, it was effectively made the Brexit election far more than the 2017 one was, and by 2019 Starmer had saddled Labour with an unpopular policy on the issue which Corbyn was silly enough to allow through. And after the scare Corbyn gave the establishment in 2017, far, far more demonising had been done by 2019 to ensure he never came close again. Relevant facts which you ignore. Though I do not deny that Bozo himself had a large support base. But his own conduct as Prime Minister and that of the government he led, did much to undermine support for him in the wider electorate after 2019. Covid coming along did him no favours in this respect. I agree with this - it was policy not the personality of the opposition that led to Johnson securing a landslide in 2019. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 11, 2024 18:55:01 GMT
We have just in the last week seen Labour dropping their £28 Billion spending pledge, which they reiterated only 3 months ago, by saying circumstances have changed. So if circumstances can change that much in 3 months why are you holding the Tories to account for something they said 5 years ago? Starmer has broken almost every promise he ever made. But at least he is breaking slightly more positive ground on this one in that he is withdrawing the pledge before an election rather than lying about it to get elected. Though it leaves me wondering even more what the hell the point of voting Labour is. Given his performance in the Labour leadership election what is the difference? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 18:57:17 GMT
You put forward the suggestion that the Tories lost their 2019 popularity "perhaps" because Bozo was no longer their leader... Yes, yes I did. ...When asked to support that idea as part of an intelligent debate, you deny you even suggested it... Nope, I'm not denying it.  Are you off on one again, Shrieks? Because you do get a bit shrill now and again. You know that's why I call you "Shrieks"? It's because of these sudden bursts of irrationality (and fantasy) that you're prone to. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 19:02:23 GMT
It is also undeniable that support for the Tories was finally starting to collapse under him as ever more of the gormless goons who thought he could do no wrong finally started waking up to his true character. Which is why they got rid of him. His reappearance now will not make things any better for them and if you think it will you are either kidding yourself or relying on many of the public being even bigger idiots than I at least already thought they were. There are a lot of stupid people out there but most of them do have a limit to their stupidity and Bozo has stretched that limit to breaking point. The Tories' problem is that they cannot find anyone better. And if there is no one better than Bozo, they are in serious trouble. I think using the word collapse is a bit of an exaggeration. They were still within touching distance of labour as I said Steve. Johnson really seems to upset quite a few people for some reason , and also seems to be equally likeable to the tory grassroots. I personally think if Johnson came back in some capacity , perhaps even as leader , the tories would smash labour out of the park. Not my fight though Steve , im merely like you just offering an opinion. You are free to think that. I remain convinced you are wrong. But it is hypothetical so unless he actually does become leader we can never know. I accept that he might boost Tory support a little amongst a few who still think being a good laugh down the pub is all that matters, but not enough to make much difference. It is too far gone now for the Tories I suspect. Down in England most outside the Tory core vote have turned decisively against the Tories, and even some of the core vote is openly flirting with Reform. You might know Scottish politics better than me but I suspect I might know English politics better than you. But as with all hypotheticals, neither of us can prove the other wrong and neither of us can know for certain. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 19:04:28 GMT
You put forward the suggestion that the Tories lost their 2019 popularity "perhaps" because Bozo was no longer their leader... Yes, yes I did. ...When asked to support that idea as part of an intelligent debate, you deny you even suggested it... Nope, I'm not denying it. Are you off on one again, Shrieks? Because you do get a bit shrill now and again. You know that's why I call you "Shrieks"? It's because of these sudden bursts of irrationality (and fantasy) that you're prone to. Oh the irony. (to coin a phrase, lol) What you have consistently failed to do - and where you tend to try denying that you said what you said - is to provide an actual argument based upon evidence to back up a suggestion that Boris remains just as popular today. Which is the clear logical implication behind any suggestion that the loss of support for the Tories is down to him not being their leader. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 19:10:32 GMT
Well now, Shrieks... Shall we revisit?
No. I am merely asking you to provide your reasoning in support of a suggestion that the Tories would still be as popular as in 2019 with Boris as leader... At no point did I say that. But feel free to quote where I did since you keep claiming it.  |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 19:21:52 GMT
Well now, Shrieks... Shall we revisit?
No. I am merely asking you to provide your reasoning in support of a suggestion that the Tories would still be as popular as in 2019 with Boris as leader... At no point did I say that. But feel free to quote where I did since you keep claiming it. You put forward as a possible explanation for the loss of Tory support since 2019 the fact that Boris is no longer their leader. Your exact words have been quoted several times now. Here they are again offered as a possible explanation for the decline in Tory support ... " Perhaps because Boris is no longer the leader." You have provided no logical line of reasoning in support of this. Instead as predicted and as you have done multiple times, you try to deny your own words by denying you said them instead of supporting them with a reasoned argument which you seem incapable of. Or rather, as soon as exactly the same thing is expressed in a different way, you suddenly deny it. Because quite clearly to any intelligent person, any suggestion that the loss of support for the Tories since 2019 is due to Bozo no longer being leader, is exactly the same thing logically as claiming Bozo is as popular today as he was then. There is much evidence against that. None whatesoever for it thus far, least of all from you. You are dishonestly using semantics to squirm like a worm on a hook, because you cannot support what you suggested as an explanation but dont want to admit that nor be seen to have lost the argument. I am familiar with these desperate tactics but they do make you look a fool without you apparently realising it. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 19:28:20 GMT
You're repeating yourself now, Shrieks. Since I have no desire to do the same, I can only refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago. Maybe next time I'll say what you wished I'd said. But don't hold your breath. Or maybe... Do. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 19:33:09 GMT
You're repeating yourself now, Shrieks. Since I have no desire to do the same, I can only refer you to the answer I gave some moments ago. Maybe next time I'll say what you wished I'd said. But don't hold your breath. Or maybe... Do. Last Worditis is a terrible affliction when you have so comprehensively lost the argument and made a fool of yourself. |
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Post by jonksy on Feb 11, 2024 22:15:51 GMT
Nigel Farage: 'The Tories are desperate and calling me every day'..... Nigel Farage has admitted that he receives “desperate” calls from Tory MPs several times a day. The GB News presenter has hinted several times about his potential return to politics but has left pundits guessing as to which party he could run for. Speaking at an event last week to mark the launch of the Popular Conservative movement, Farage appeared to pour cold water on the Tories. He explained: “I suspect I would agree with a lot of what is said on the platform this morning, but none of it is going to be Conservative manifesto policy.
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Post by sheepy on Feb 12, 2024 7:17:34 GMT
Here are are a few points from the Tory 2019 manifesto — I don't think an updated or altered version came in with each following leader: Everyone in the UK should have the peace of mind and confidence that come from world-class health care – and so this new One Nation Conservative Government is giving the NHS its biggest ever cash boost, with 20 hospital upgrades and 40 new hospitals, while delivering 50,000 more nurses and 6,000 more doctors and creating an extra 50 million general practice appointments a year.
If this Conservative Government is returned to office, we will have an infrastructure revolution for this country. Now is the time to invest in Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the Midlands Rail Hub, and so many more projects, as well as a massive programme of improvements for our roads and gigabit broadband for every home and business.
And there is only one way to pay for world-class health care and outstanding infrastructure – and that is to foster and encourage the millions of British businesses, large and small, that create the wealth of the nation. Their success is our success. It is thanks to the innovations of British batterymakers and turbine designers that we are able to cut CO2 - and achieve our goal of being carbon neutral by 2050.
Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style pointsbased immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
A Conservative Government will give the public services the resources they need, supporting our hospitals, our schools and our police. We will help people and families throughout their lives by bringing down the cost of living and making sure that work always pays. We will keep costs down for small businesses – rather than hiking their taxes and crushing Britain’s prosperity.
We are proud that since its foundation, it is the Conservative Party that has acted as the steward and guardian of the NHS and its principles for 44 of its 71 years. We are proud that it is coping with increasing demand, with more doctors and nurses, and using more advanced treatments than ever before. And we are proud to have confirmed a record £34 billion per year by the end of the Parliament in additional funding for the NHS – and to have begun work on building 40 new hospitals across the country, as well as investing in hospital upgrades and new machines to boost early cancer diagnosis across 78 hospital trusts.
We will improve [NHS] staff morale with more funding for professional training and more supportive hospital management.
For the UK to unleash its potential, young people need the security of knowing that home ownership is within their reach – that they too can have a tangible stake in society, can be rooted in their communities and have a place to raise a family. A majority Conservative Government will continue to increase the number of homes being built.
Will we read the full document before we decide who we're voting for...?
What is the point of reading old manifestos? - the world has moved on. I guess, what would be the point of making them in the first place, just so you can say what is the point in reading them. Whereas most people are likely to think they were just the usual load of bullshit anyway. Where people realise, politicians never represent what they say they will. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 12, 2024 8:48:15 GMT
I think using the word collapse is a bit of an exaggeration. They were still within touching distance of labour as I said Steve. Johnson really seems to upset quite a few people for some reason , and also seems to be equally likeable to the tory grassroots. I personally think if Johnson came back in some capacity , perhaps even as leader , the tories would smash labour out of the park. Not my fight though Steve , im merely like you just offering an opinion. You are free to think that. I remain convinced you are wrong. But it is hypothetical so unless he actually does become leader we can never know. I accept that he might boost Tory support a little amongst a few who still think being a good laugh down the pub is all that matters, but not enough to make much difference. It is too far gone now for the Tories I suspect. Down in England most outside the Tory core vote have turned decisively against the Tories, and even some of the core vote is openly flirting with Reform. You might know Scottish politics better than me but I suspect I might know English politics better than you. But as with all hypotheticals, neither of us can prove the other wrong and neither of us can know for certain. fair enough Steve , as you say , its all hypothetical at this point. Johnson certainly couldnt do any worse than Sunak. When you scratch the surface of keir starmers polling lead , you see he hasn't actually increased labours support from the 2019 election as a percentage of the overall electorate. In scotland , starmers approval ratings are falling that low if they go much further , he might end up worse than thatchers. Starmers Labour Party have stood still while all the others parties votes have fallen past them. If. Johnson came back , and the snp got their act together with a new leader and a renewed push for independence , I think starmers labour would be blown out the water. He is offering nothing new , merely more of the same , and is clearly pissing off his own voters regarding Gaza and trying to out tory the tories. We dont need two conservative parties. If starmer does manage to win the next election , I suspect he will be nothing more than a brief sticking plaster for the UKs woes . Thats before we even start to consider the fallout from his BRINO deal he will try and foist upon the English electorate. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2024 9:58:57 GMT
You are free to think that. I remain convinced you are wrong. But it is hypothetical so unless he actually does become leader we can never know. I accept that he might boost Tory support a little amongst a few who still think being a good laugh down the pub is all that matters, but not enough to make much difference. It is too far gone now for the Tories I suspect. Down in England most outside the Tory core vote have turned decisively against the Tories, and even some of the core vote is openly flirting with Reform. You might know Scottish politics better than me but I suspect I might know English politics better than you. But as with all hypotheticals, neither of us can prove the other wrong and neither of us can know for certain. fair enough Steve , as you say , its all hypothetical at this point. Johnson certainly couldnt do any worse than Sunak. When you scratch the surface of keir starmers polling lead , you see he hasn't actually increased labours support from the 2019 election as a percentage of the overall electorate. In scotland , starmers approval ratings are falling that low if they go much further , he might end up worse than thatchers. Starmers Labour Party have stood still while all the others parties votes have fallen past them. If. Johnson came back , and the snp got their act together with a new leader and a renewed push for independence , I think starmers labour would be blown out the water. He is offering nothing new , merely more of the same , and is clearly pissing off his own voters regarding Gaza and trying to out tory the tories. We dont need two conservative parties. If starmer does manage to win the next election , I suspect he will be nothing more than a brief sticking plaster for the UKs woes . Thats before we even start to consider the fallout from his BRINO deal he will try and foist upon the English electorate. I tend to agree that support for Starmer is being overplayed, as was the supposed disaster of 2019 when Labour did so badly that they only managed to poll more votes than Blair in 2005, lol. The real culprit for distorted outcomes for good or ill is of course FPTP but the pundits typically ignore that in talking about outcomes. The country is said to have backed this or that party when in every postwar election the winning party has never gained majority support. The one who came closest was Attlee in 1945 but that was a very long time ago when people largely still backed the two party system. Invariably since then a majority of the country never voted for the government and thus tended to be politically opposed to it, rather than backing it. The current polling support for Starmer and Labour is soft at the moment, based upon Labour being the Not The Tories Party and little else. I suspect a number of things will happen that will narrow their poll lead come the election, though I doubt it will be anywhere near large enough to save the Tories at this point. Firstly many disgruntled Tories who are flirting with Reform right now or telling pollsters they will not vote Tory will when push comes to shove and they realise that not doing so makes a Labour victory more likely, hold their noses and vote Tory anyway in the end. At times of intense unpopularity, many potential Tory voters go shy. Their likely vote percentage will probably be higher than current polling suggests. Also poll leads often narrow in elections, sometimes markedly so as in 2017. And whilst the failings of a government are always in the news, the plans of the opposition - or lack of them - tend to come under greater scrutiny in an election campaign. I still think at this point Labour will win a majority, though probably not as large a one as polling currently suggests. This is nevertheless a pity because I would prefer a hung parliament for reasons I have set out many times before. |
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