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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 18:09:34 GMT
Nope, wrong again.
Seriously, Shrieks - stop assuming and start reading. 🙄
You literally suggested that perhaps the reason the Tories were not as popular now as they were in 2019 is because Bozo is no longer their leader. There is next to no evidence in support of such a suggestion being correct but much which makes it unlikely to be, not least the fact that polling showed him to have already lost a lot of his popularity which was increasingly starting to nosedive in the polls by the time they forced him out. Had he at that point still been as popular as he was in 2019 they would never have turned on him when they did. No, I posed the question.
Have a look a witchfinder's post above. It explains much of the discussion.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:10:48 GMT
If you honestly think that the only reason fewer people support the Tories now than in 2019 is because Bozo is not leader, you are delusional. Where is your evidence to support that? Evidence of what they thought 5 years ago is only evidence of what they thought 5 years ago. Many people are unhappy with the way that Boris was unseated. What evidence do you have that it's not a factor in the Tories (alleged) loss of popularity? And I gave solid reasons why "perhaps" it is much more likely that he isnt as popular as he was in 2019. He was according to polling already demonstrably much less popular by the time they forced him out for one thing. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 18:15:32 GMT
No, I asked the question - the clue is in the word "Perhaps".Many people are unhappy with the way that Boris was unseated. What evidence do you have that it's not a factor in the Tories (alleged) loss of popularity? And I gave solid reasons why "perhaps" it is much more likely that he isnt as popular as he was in 2019. He was according to polling already demonstrably much less popular by the time they forced him out for one thing. Furry muff - that may even be true. Hell, it probably is.
But I never said that I wanted to see Boris restored to power as Andrew Brown and yourself incorrectly claimed. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 11, 2024 18:21:42 GMT
The Bozo cheerleaders around here and in the Tory party certainly don't seem to think these things matter to the rest of us. It is rather amusing to think that in spite of everything that has become clear about him since 2019, they still think of him as the ideal choice. It really would be most entertaining to see him back as leader, whilst the rest of us who are far less deluded, get the popcorn at the ready as we sit back and enjoy the shitshow between now and the election. I almost hope he does become leader again just for shits and giggles. And when everything ends in disaster we can all enjoy the spectacle of numerous conspiracy theories being paraded before us to explain it all. Lol The Bozo supporters utterly fail to grasp that no one outside their own thought bubble believes a word he says anymore. He could promise the earth and no one would believe it. That Starmer is hardly a paragon of honesty either when it comes to policy promises would do little to change that. The best way for the Tories to challenge an endlessly flip flopping Labour leader is to have a paragon of honesty and integrity in charge of their own side. Not the biggest and most corrupt liar they have, lol. Exactly. To think that everyone voted for Boris because he was popular, rather than many people thinking he was the lesser of two evils against Corbyn is a little deluded. Whilst he undeniably had his fan base, he was never universally popular. To see Tories thinking he's the saviour after he did more to destroy them than Truss and Sunak seems just somewhat bizarre. They want to go back there fine, but don't expect the country to follow. Johnson won 2 Mayoral elections in London which is a predominately Labour supporting city - so at some point you have to admit he is popular with the electorate and his popularity can cut across political borders. The idea that he only won in 2019 was because he was up against Corbyn fails at the first hurdle when you remember that Corbyn was very popular himself in the election held just 2 years earlier (getting 40% of the vote). |
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Post by patman post on Feb 11, 2024 18:23:43 GMT
Here are are a few points from the Tory 2019 manifesto — I don't think an updated or altered version came in with each following leader: Everyone in the UK should have the peace of mind and confidence that come from world-class health care – and so this new One Nation Conservative Government is giving the NHS its biggest ever cash boost, with 20 hospital upgrades and 40 new hospitals, while delivering 50,000 more nurses and 6,000 more doctors and creating an extra 50 million general practice appointments a year.
If this Conservative Government is returned to office, we will have an infrastructure revolution for this country. Now is the time to invest in Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the Midlands Rail Hub, and so many more projects, as well as a massive programme of improvements for our roads and gigabit broadband for every home and business.
And there is only one way to pay for world-class health care and outstanding infrastructure – and that is to foster and encourage the millions of British businesses, large and small, that create the wealth of the nation. Their success is our success. It is thanks to the innovations of British batterymakers and turbine designers that we are able to cut CO2 - and achieve our goal of being carbon neutral by 2050.
Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style pointsbased immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
A Conservative Government will give the public services the resources they need, supporting our hospitals, our schools and our police. We will help people and families throughout their lives by bringing down the cost of living and making sure that work always pays. We will keep costs down for small businesses – rather than hiking their taxes and crushing Britain’s prosperity.
We are proud that since its foundation, it is the Conservative Party that has acted as the steward and guardian of the NHS and its principles for 44 of its 71 years. We are proud that it is coping with increasing demand, with more doctors and nurses, and using more advanced treatments than ever before. And we are proud to have confirmed a record £34 billion per year by the end of the Parliament in additional funding for the NHS – and to have begun work on building 40 new hospitals across the country, as well as investing in hospital upgrades and new machines to boost early cancer diagnosis across 78 hospital trusts.
We will improve [NHS] staff morale with more funding for professional training and more supportive hospital management.
For the UK to unleash its potential, young people need the security of knowing that home ownership is within their reach – that they too can have a tangible stake in society, can be rooted in their communities and have a place to raise a family. A majority Conservative Government will continue to increase the number of homes being built.
Will we read the new full document and see if its promises are more likely to be carried out than before, if we decide who we're voting for...?
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Post by thomas on Feb 11, 2024 18:25:09 GMT
Thats a false projection. The snp didnt get 4.7% of the vote share . The snp dont stand across the uk , only in scotland hence the snp got 49.97% of the vote share in the country they stood in. Taking 56 Scottish seats , and then falsely arguing they got that off a share of the entire uk electorate is a nonsensical argument. I believe I have said before there Is a clear argument for England to have a form of pr. We can see daily the support for the two main parties breaking down and that the old two party fptp system is creaking and about to break. Making false argument s though doesn't help your cause. If I remember correct , UKIP lost numerous deposits in scotland in that election , and barely took over 1 % of the Scottish vote. Their problem was mainly in England , where they simply didnt poll high enough on a constituency basis to start taking seats in large volumes. Eh? This really is nonsense . UKIP had the same chance at election time in scotland as the snp , and they simply couldnt manage support as in scotland they were seen as a right wing English nationalist party hence why barely anyone voted them , and they were generally regarded as nothing more than an eccentric English pressure group. Standing uk wide( the uk isnt a nation , it's a multi national state ) doesn't harm labour liberal or the tories , so im not sure why you think it harms ukip? A bit of a weird conclusion there to be honest. The point is seats in Parliament in line with votes . Representation of the people of the UK . nope. The snp dont represent the people of the uk. They represent the people in scotland only. Same as Plaid Cymru , Sinn Fein , DUP and many other parties who stand in their constituent nation , rather than across the multi national uk. Thats right , but the reverse of that argument is also true. The snp got 49.97 % of the vote in the country where they stood. UKIP only got 12 % of the vote uk wide , and a mere 14.1% of the vote in your own country England. The snp didnt make the rules for Westminster elections and fptp. You can't then moan when they smash the very system England has implemented for its own parliament , and moan when UKIP can't do the same , neither in England itself , or uk wide. You aren't comparing like for like , and doing your own argument for a proportional English system a disservice . A false argument ive already said , because it doesn't stand uk wide , only in scotland. If ukip had managed to get 49 .97% of the English vote , it similarly would have had a large volume of seats , but it couldnt. That wasn't the snp fault. The didnt devise the uk electoral rules did they? We already have a pr system in scotland , which the snp has convincingly won under numerous times. Why moan to me about rules for your own countries parliament ? I support pr. It doesn't matter what system you put in front of scotland , we will still smash the brit parties. The snp took 49.97% of scotland vote ,got 56 seats , meanwhile the tories got 36.8% of the vote in your parliament , but got 330 seats , and you tell us it's unfair? Tony Blair won a landslide in 2001 with 418 seats off the back of barely a fifth of the uk electorate , on the lowest post war election turnout. Scotland isnt the problem. It's your country that has all the issues , as ive said before , England is arguably the only nation in Western Europe without a form of pr . I dont support FPTP. Ive attacked the dodgy fptp two party system for years. My problem with what you wrote is your false comparisons , and using the snp as the object of your ire. The snp dont stand uk wide , and didnt implement the system for Westminster you are moaning about. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:27:44 GMT
You literally suggested that perhaps the reason the Tories were not as popular now as they were in 2019 is because Bozo is no longer their leader. There is next to no evidence in support of such a suggestion being correct but much which makes it unlikely to be, not least the fact that polling showed him to have already lost a lot of his popularity which was increasingly starting to nosedive in the polls by the time they forced him out. Had he at that point still been as popular as he was in 2019 they would never have turned on him when they did. No, I posed the question.
Have a look a witchfinder's post above. It explains much of the discussion.
You are being most disingenuous, trying simultaneously to put a notion forward, then denying it when asked to provide your supporting evidence or reasoning. I said this... " But a few things remain clear. Far fewer people currently support the Tories than they did in 2019" To which your literal response was this...." Perhaps because Boris is no longer the leader." This is clearly putting forward as a possible explanation for the loss of support for the Tories the fact that Bozo is no longer leader. I and others have explained why such a suggestion as a plausible reason is highly unlikely to be the cause of the collapse in support for the Tories. Not least the polling that measured the ever growing drop in his support before they ditched him. For your suggestion to have any validity in the face of all the evidence against it, requires some sort of argument that demonstrates its plausibility. You have none, and try and dance your way out of the numerous holes you are digging for yourself by playing with semantics. An intelligent man trying to simultaneously suggest something then when asked to back it up deny that he suggested it, is engaging in verbal dishonesty and signposting himself to be a dishonest fool in the minds of other intelligent people. If you are suggesting as a possibility that the Tories are less popular (to say the least, lol) than in 2019 because Boris is not their leader, then back it up with evidence and reasoning or stop suggesting it. And then denying that you suggest this as the reason when challenged. Which is all you have done throughout, here. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 11, 2024 18:29:42 GMT
Here are are a few points from the Tory 2019 manifesto — I don't think an updated or altered version came in with each following leader: Everyone in the UK should have the peace of mind and confidence that come from world-class health care – and so this new One Nation Conservative Government is giving the NHS its biggest ever cash boost, with 20 hospital upgrades and 40 new hospitals, while delivering 50,000 more nurses and 6,000 more doctors and creating an extra 50 million general practice appointments a year.
If this Conservative Government is returned to office, we will have an infrastructure revolution for this country. Now is the time to invest in Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the Midlands Rail Hub, and so many more projects, as well as a massive programme of improvements for our roads and gigabit broadband for every home and business.
And there is only one way to pay for world-class health care and outstanding infrastructure – and that is to foster and encourage the millions of British businesses, large and small, that create the wealth of the nation. Their success is our success. It is thanks to the innovations of British batterymakers and turbine designers that we are able to cut CO2 - and achieve our goal of being carbon neutral by 2050.
Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style pointsbased immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
A Conservative Government will give the public services the resources they need, supporting our hospitals, our schools and our police. We will help people and families throughout their lives by bringing down the cost of living and making sure that work always pays. We will keep costs down for small businesses – rather than hiking their taxes and crushing Britain’s prosperity.
We are proud that since its foundation, it is the Conservative Party that has acted as the steward and guardian of the NHS and its principles for 44 of its 71 years. We are proud that it is coping with increasing demand, with more doctors and nurses, and using more advanced treatments than ever before. And we are proud to have confirmed a record £34 billion per year by the end of the Parliament in additional funding for the NHS – and to have begun work on building 40 new hospitals across the country, as well as investing in hospital upgrades and new machines to boost early cancer diagnosis across 78 hospital trusts.
We will improve [NHS] staff morale with more funding for professional training and more supportive hospital management.
For the UK to unleash its potential, young people need the security of knowing that home ownership is within their reach – that they too can have a tangible stake in society, can be rooted in their communities and have a place to raise a family. A majority Conservative Government will continue to increase the number of homes being built.
Will we read the full document before we decide who we're voting for...?
What is the point of reading old manifestos? - the world has moved on. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:30:31 GMT
And I gave solid reasons why "perhaps" it is much more likely that he isnt as popular as he was in 2019. He was according to polling already demonstrably much less popular by the time they forced him out for one thing. Furry muff - that may even be true. Hell, it probably is.
But I never said that I wanted to see Boris restored to power as Andrew Brown and yourself incorrectly claimed. Well that might well be true, but in putting forth the notion that the Tories might have been a lot more popular had he still been leader, it is not wholly unreasonable to infer an implied support for such a restoration. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 18:33:12 GMT
No, I posed the question. Have a look a witchfinder's post above. It explains much of the discussion.
You are being most disingenuous, trying simultaneously to put a notion forward, then denying it when asked to provide your supporting evidence or reasoning. I said this... " But a few things remain clear. Far fewer people currently support the Tories than they did in 2019" To which your literal response was this...." Perhaps because Boris is no longer the leader." This is clearly putting forward as a possible explanation for the loss of support for the Tories the fact that Bozo is no longer leader. I and others have explained why such a suggestion as a plausible reason is highly unlikely to be the cause of the collapse in support for the Tories... Yeah - it's a discussion and this is a discussion forum. You however, seem more interested in simply starting an argument. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 11, 2024 18:33:46 GMT
Doesn't matter Steve. Taking your personal distaste for Johnson away from the discussion , its inarguable that since Sunak took over , the tories have been in a death spiral , while during Johnston's leadership , they were within touching distance of labour. It is also undeniable that support for the Tories was finally starting to collapse under him as ever more of the gormless goons who thought he could do no wrong finally started waking up to his true character. Which is why they got rid of him. His reappearance now will not make things any better for them and if you think it will you are either kidding yourself or relying on many of the public being even bigger idiots than I at least already thought they were. There are a lot of stupid people out there but most of them do have a limit to their stupidity and Bozo has stretched that limit to breaking point. The Tories' problem is that they cannot find anyone better. And if there is no one better than Bozo, they are in serious trouble. I think using the word collapse is a bit of an exaggeration. They were still within touching distance of labour as I said Steve. Johnson really seems to upset quite a few people for some reason , and also seems to be equally likeable to the tory grassroots. I personally think if Johnson came back in some capacity , perhaps even as leader , the tories would smash labour out of the park. Not my fight though Steve , im merely like you just offering an opinion. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Feb 11, 2024 18:35:19 GMT
Furry muff - that may even be true. Hell, it probably is.
But I never said that I wanted to see Boris restored to power as Andrew Brown and yourself incorrectly claimed. Well that might well be true, but in putting forth the notion that the Tories might have been a lot more popular had he still been leader, it is not wholly unreasonable to infer an implied support for such a restoration. No, it is wholly unreasonable.
I posed a question for discussion. That does not imply support.
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Post by patman post on Feb 11, 2024 18:37:52 GMT
Here are are a few points from the Tory 2019 manifesto — I don't think an updated or altered version came in with each following leader: Everyone in the UK should have the peace of mind and confidence that come from world-class health care – and so this new One Nation Conservative Government is giving the NHS its biggest ever cash boost, with 20 hospital upgrades and 40 new hospitals, while delivering 50,000 more nurses and 6,000 more doctors and creating an extra 50 million general practice appointments a year.
If this Conservative Government is returned to office, we will have an infrastructure revolution for this country. Now is the time to invest in Northern Powerhouse Rail, and the Midlands Rail Hub, and so many more projects, as well as a massive programme of improvements for our roads and gigabit broadband for every home and business.
And there is only one way to pay for world-class health care and outstanding infrastructure – and that is to foster and encourage the millions of British businesses, large and small, that create the wealth of the nation. Their success is our success. It is thanks to the innovations of British batterymakers and turbine designers that we are able to cut CO2 - and achieve our goal of being carbon neutral by 2050.
Take back control of our laws. Take back control of our money. Control our own trade policy. Introduce an Australian-style pointsbased immigration system. Raise standards in areas like workers’ rights, animal welfare, agriculture and the environment. Ensure we are in full control of our fishing waters.
A Conservative Government will give the public services the resources they need, supporting our hospitals, our schools and our police. We will help people and families throughout their lives by bringing down the cost of living and making sure that work always pays. We will keep costs down for small businesses – rather than hiking their taxes and crushing Britain’s prosperity.
We are proud that since its foundation, it is the Conservative Party that has acted as the steward and guardian of the NHS and its principles for 44 of its 71 years. We are proud that it is coping with increasing demand, with more doctors and nurses, and using more advanced treatments than ever before. And we are proud to have confirmed a record £34 billion per year by the end of the Parliament in additional funding for the NHS – and to have begun work on building 40 new hospitals across the country, as well as investing in hospital upgrades and new machines to boost early cancer diagnosis across 78 hospital trusts.
We will improve [NHS] staff morale with more funding for professional training and more supportive hospital management.
For the UK to unleash its potential, young people need the security of knowing that home ownership is within their reach – that they too can have a tangible stake in society, can be rooted in their communities and have a place to raise a family. A majority Conservative Government will continue to increase the number of homes being built.
Will we read the full document before we decide who we're voting for...?
What is the point of reading old manifestos? - the world has moved on. But has the UK?
Certainly, the current Tories have left the place strewn with broken promises and greater hardship, even the claimed reduced inflation has happened because it rose under their watch...
PS — and the current manifesto shows the undertakings that were given and missed.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2024 18:39:15 GMT
Exactly. To think that everyone voted for Boris because he was popular, rather than many people thinking he was the lesser of two evils against Corbyn is a little deluded. Whilst he undeniably had his fan base, he was never universally popular. To see Tories thinking he's the saviour after he did more to destroy them than Truss and Sunak seems just somewhat bizarre. They want to go back there fine, but don't expect the country to follow. Johnson won 2 Mayoral elections in London which is a predominately Labour supporting city - so at some point you have to admit he is popular with the electorate and his popularity can cut across political borders. The idea that he only won in 2019 was because he was up against Corbyn fails at the first hurdle when you remember that Corbyn was very popular himself in the election held just 2 years earlier (getting 40% of the vote). At some point Bozo was indeed popular with the electorate, a great many of whom seemed to support him on the basis that he would be a good laugh down the pub. As for the 2019 election, it was effectively made the Brexit election far more than the 2017 one was, and by 2019 Starmer had saddled Labour with an unpopular policy on the issue which Corbyn was silly enough to allow through. And after the scare Corbyn gave the establishment in 2017, far, far more demonising had been done by 2019 to ensure he never came close again. Relevant facts which you ignore. Though I do not deny that Bozo himself had a large support base. But his own conduct as Prime Minister and that of the government he led, did much to undermine support for him in the wider electorate after 2019. Covid coming along did him no favours in this respect. |
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 11, 2024 18:49:08 GMT
What is the point of reading old manifestos? - the world has moved on. But has the UK?
Certainly, the current Tories have left the place strewn with broken promises and greater hardship, even the claimed reduced inflation has happened because it rose under their watch...
PS — and the current manifesto shows the undertakings that were given and missed.
We have just in the last week seen Labour dropping their £28 Billion spending pledge, which they reiterated only 3 months ago, by saying circumstances have changed. So if circumstances can change that much in 3 months why are you holding the Tories to account for something they said 5 years ago? |
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