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Post by jonksy on Jan 10, 2024 22:39:13 GMT
Tory Rwanda rebel MPs grow to 40 as Sunak heads for Commons showdown.
The number of Tory MPs calling for Rishi Sunak to toughen up his bill to enable flights to Rwanda has grown to 40 but the Prime Minister has indicated he will not back down believing they will not vote against the legislation.
Ministers believe that Tory rebels are become less inclined to vote down the legislation if they do not get the hardline changes they want and could therefore attempt to pass it without offering significant concessions, although minor tweaks are still a possibility.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 11, 2024 0:27:10 GMT
There's potential rebels on both sides of the Tories on this. Concede on one side give on another. Even if the government can get it through, likely the Lords will rip it to shreds anyway and the government runs out of parliamentary time. I think that Sunak hanging his hat on this policy, that he doesn't even think will work, just makes him look weak and not in control.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 11, 2024 5:04:39 GMT
There's potential rebels on both sides of the Tories on this. Concede on one side give on another. Even if the government can get it through, likely the Lords will rip it to shreds anyway and the government runs out of parliamentary time. I think that Sunak hanging his hat on this policy, that he doesn't even think will work, just makes him look weak and not in control. You can't just sit there and do nothing as PM. If the Lords screw you then you must threaten to use the Parliamentary Act. The fact is many MPs are traitors to the country and many are in the Tory Party now. They are just on the make like Johnson was. Anyway, if the bill fails to stop the problem one will have to make amendments to correct the trouble. For example if the ECHR lawyers try and exploit it we threaten to leave and then they will be out of a job.
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Post by jonksy on Jan 11, 2024 7:37:07 GMT
There's potential rebels on both sides of the Tories on this. Concede on one side give on another. Even if the government can get it through, likely the Lords will rip it to shreds anyway and the government runs out of parliamentary time. I think that Sunak hanging his hat on this policy, that he doesn't even think will work, just makes him look weak and not in control. The good old LOL yet another fucking bunch of has beens draining the pot. The establishment do the controlling not the PM or government.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 11, 2024 7:45:24 GMT
On the one hand it is a fair statement that a Prime Minister under pressure from the House of Lords should at the end of the day consider the use in extremis of the Parliament Act.
Let us suppose for example that Theresa May’s utterly disastrous antics after Cameron’s cowardice led to Boris declaring in 2017 that he WAS in fact that man, and that his overwhelming majority in 2019 earned in the face of years of trench warfare by the opposition in collusion with the Speaker to thwart the will of the people came two years earlier. Had the Lords then begun a conspiracy to thwart the manifesto commitment to ‘get Brexit Done’ it would have been both righteous and democratic to use the provisions of that act to crush the opposition in ‘that other place’
BUT
It is one thing for a newly elected government (or even a government of some years standing), elected with a massive majority with a clear manifesto commitment upon which the overwhelming number of government MPs stand resolute in support of, to use that Act to push through a measure which they were elected to implement. It is also conceivable that a replacement leader of the party, chosen by that party’s publicly declared mechanism, who enjoyed the continued support of the back benches for the policy in question to use that measure to remove the blockage imposed by the unelected house ….
However it is quite another for a man rejected by his party’s leadership process, beset on all sides by differences of opinion in his backbenchers, despised by his party membership for several reasons, not least his abuse of that leadership process to seize power, whose economic policies have crucified his own party members and whose so called flagship policies have each and every one been dashed to pieces on the rocks of political and legislative reality, to seize that legislation, as a drowning man seizes the thinnest and most unsuitable of overhanging twigs dipping into the maelstrom, and abuse it to impose his dictatorial will.
After all, this country had a record of going to war to remove such people from power.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 11, 2024 10:25:25 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to.
Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims.
No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some.
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Post by Dogburger on Jan 11, 2024 11:01:49 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to. Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims. No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some. Im not sure what he is trying to do is even allowed ? The separation of government and judiciary is clearly divided to save us from tyranny .If he can as you say overturn convictions for post office victims overnight whats to stop him bypassing the judiciary in other matters ? Though I think we would all agree the post office people need justice that has to come from the courts not from a PM deciding their innocence because that will lead to him in the future deciding someones guilt.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 11, 2024 11:17:41 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to. Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims. No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some. Im not sure what he is trying to do is even allowed ? The separation of government and judiciary is clearly divided to save us from tyranny .If he can as you say overturn convictions for post office victims overnight whats to stop him bypassing the judiciary in other matters ? Though I think we would all agree the post office people need justice that has to come from the courts not from a PM deciding their innocence because that will lead to him in the future deciding someones guilt. Absolutely, we all agree these victims need exonerating ASAP, but it's jaw dropping just how quickly Sunak is going about it.
Which begs the question why can he cherry pick which laws can be changed overnight, and is he setting a dangerous precedent personally overturning convictions, it undermines the whole Judiciary system, which will lead to him and any future Prime Ministers getting personally involved in criminal cases, it's also highlighting just how much power a Prime Minister has 'when he needs to use it'.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 11, 2024 11:20:42 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to. Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims. No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some. It will be going through Parliament - possibly in about 6 weeks time
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 11, 2024 11:25:38 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to. Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims. No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some. It will be going through Parliament - possibly in about 6 weeks time And will pass with no objections, unlike most other bills that face weeks, months and years to even get a mention.
(I fully agree with clearing these victims of misjustice) I'm just highlighting the breathtaking speed we get things done when need be.
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Post by ratcliff on Jan 11, 2024 11:33:28 GMT
Im not sure what he is trying to do is even allowed ? The separation of government and judiciary is clearly divided to save us from tyranny .If he can as you say overturn convictions for post office victims overnight whats to stop him bypassing the judiciary in other matters ? Though I think we would all agree the post office people need justice that has to come from the courts not from a PM deciding their innocence because that will lead to him in the future deciding someones guilt. Absolutely, we all agree these victims need exonerating ASAP, but it's jaw dropping just how quickly Sunak is going about it.
Which begs the question why can he cherry pick which laws can be changed overnight, and is he setting a dangerous precedent personally overturning convictions, it undermines the whole Judiciary system, which will lead to him and any future Prime Ministers getting personally involved in criminal cases, it's also highlighting just how much power a Prime Minister has 'when he needs to use it'.
Sunak is not personally overturning convictions, a new primary law will shortly be introduced to exonerate convicted postmasters , this new law will go through Parliament as usual (but should be supported by all sides)
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 11, 2024 11:35:22 GMT
Absolutely, we all agree these victims need exonerating ASAP, but it's jaw dropping just how quickly Sunak is going about it.
Which begs the question why can he cherry pick which laws can be changed overnight, and is he setting a dangerous precedent personally overturning convictions, it undermines the whole Judiciary system, which will lead to him and any future Prime Ministers getting personally involved in criminal cases, it's also highlighting just how much power a Prime Minister has 'when he needs to use it'.
Sunak is not personally overturning convictions, a new primary law will shortly be introduced to exonerate convicted postmasters , this new law will go through Parliament as usual (but should be supported by all sides) He's personally intervening which amounts to the same thing.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 11, 2024 11:37:03 GMT
I think you rather answer your own question there. No-one will oppose the Post Office Bill. Everyone, including both wings of his party opposing his Rwanda Bill. That's why it will take time.
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 11, 2024 11:37:59 GMT
If a bunch of us were all charged with the same offense and we all protested our innocence, I can guarantee you if we got Sunak involved he would tell us it has to be left to the judicial service, he can't personally intervene.
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 11, 2024 11:52:00 GMT
I was thinking how quick the wheels of Westminster can turn when it has to. Virtually overnight Sunak has implemented 'new laws' to overturn the convictions of the Post Office victims. No going through parliament, No vote on it, No going through the House of Lord, NO going through the Supreme Courts, Sunak has done it overnight, unlike when we have to deal with the illegal migrant crisis, that has to go through all of this ^^ and then some. Wrong on four counts. The legislation will go through parliament. There will be a vote on it. It will go through the House of Lords It will be subject to judicial review.
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