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Post by zanygame on Dec 15, 2023 21:30:28 GMT
Its not a lottery with X amount of winners Well would all gay Ghanains have a sound case to seek asylum? I never said it was lottery but we have to consider in the round who would be eligible if we applied the rules strictly and allowed applications to be made outwith our borders. At the moment we feel like lottery winners if we get someone to leave. I have no idea. How many would wish to leave everything they know. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 15, 2023 21:45:52 GMT
Well would all gay Ghanains have a sound case to seek asylum? I never said it was lottery but we have to consider in the round who would be eligible if we applied the rules strictly and allowed applications to be made outwith our borders. At the moment we feel like lottery winners if we get someone to leave. I have no idea. How many would wish to leave everything they know. And therein lies the problem no one knows how many but we can get an idea of how many would be eligible if they applied. If we just deal with Ghana alone we have perhaps half a million gay people who can now face a a ten year prison sentence for acts of homosexuality. So half a million people may be directly eligible to flee danger. If you make it so that fleeing danger can be done by travelling say 100 miles and apply instead of travelling 4000 miles with two dangerous sea crossings then apply it whittles down the numbers. Say only 10% apply then that is 50,000 from Ghana alone for one law and one reason for being persecuted and seeking safety. That is not to mention political persecution, tribal persecution, religious persecution and other draconian laws. Yet ALL gay people would be eligible from Ghana. If you build an escape route they will come. We cannot save the world, we cannot save even 1% of the world when we tried it in their lands they told us to piss off, now its is our turn. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 15, 2023 21:53:24 GMT
I'm sure this is the general idea. Given all the evidence it is hard now to believe that that is not the general idea. It is a strange world where we are told to cut our carbon emissions on the flimsiest of evidence yet when the evidence piles up that immigration is a major problem both in terms of societal cohesion and cost we get the oh conspiracy theory. I'm afraid you'll have to continue to talk to them like they're children and hope it's a benefit to others. To even suggest a correlation between their lust for immigration and societal cohesion breaking down will result in a tantrum, but I'm sure it isn't anything a patient person like your good self can't handle. After all, it's practically accepted as a fact amongst the more enlightened.
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Post by Orac on Dec 15, 2023 22:29:46 GMT
Well would all gay Ghanains have a sound case to seek asylum? I never said it was lottery but we have to consider in the round who would be eligible if we applied the rules strictly and allowed applications to be made outwith our borders. At the moment we feel like lottery winners if we get someone to leave. I have no idea. How many would wish to leave everything they know. No idea at all? In that case it might be an idea to set a reasonable limit, just in case we get far more than 100 applications. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 16, 2023 8:25:41 GMT
I have no idea. How many would wish to leave everything they know. And therein lies the problem no one knows how many but we can get an idea of how many would be eligible if they applied. If we just deal with Ghana alone we have perhaps half a million gay people who can now face a a ten year prison sentence for acts of homosexuality. So half a million people may be directly eligible to flee danger. If you make it so that fleeing danger can be done by travelling say 100 miles and apply instead of travelling 4000 miles with two dangerous sea crossings then apply it whittles down the numbers. Say only 10% apply then that is 50,000 from Ghana alone for one law and one reason for being persecuted and seeking safety. That is not to mention political persecution, tribal persecution, religious persecution and other draconian laws. Yet ALL gay people would be eligible from Ghana. If you build an escape route they will come. We cannot save the world, we cannot save even 1% of the world when we tried it in their lands they told us to piss off, now its is our turn. So you are saying the only thing that stops them escaping torture and death is the cost of escaping? I disagree, I think you haven't bothered to research this, I became aware of the differences between expectation and reality a while ago when the same subject touched Saudi Arabia. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/ghana/"Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited under the Criminal Code 1960, which criminalises acts of ‘unnatural carnal knowledge’. This provision carries a maximum penalty of three years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law. The law was inherited from the British during the colonial period, in which the English criminal law was imposed upon Ghana. Ghana retained the provision in its first Criminal Code upon independence, which remains in force, and continues to criminalise same-sex sexual activity today. An anti-LGBT Bill which would further criminalise LGBT people is currently before Parliament. There is some evidence of the law being enforced in recent years, with LGBT people being occasionally subject to arrest, though there is no evidence of convictions under the law. There have been consistent reports of discrimination and violence being committed against LGBT people in recent years, including assault, mob attacks, arbitrary detention, extortion, and discrimination in accessing services." As for discrimination and attacks, you can come here for that. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 16, 2023 9:40:22 GMT
And therein lies the problem no one knows how many but we can get an idea of how many would be eligible if they applied. If we just deal with Ghana alone we have perhaps half a million gay people who can now face a a ten year prison sentence for acts of homosexuality. So half a million people may be directly eligible to flee danger. If you make it so that fleeing danger can be done by travelling say 100 miles and apply instead of travelling 4000 miles with two dangerous sea crossings then apply it whittles down the numbers. Say only 10% apply then that is 50,000 from Ghana alone for one law and one reason for being persecuted and seeking safety. That is not to mention political persecution, tribal persecution, religious persecution and other draconian laws. Yet ALL gay people would be eligible from Ghana. If you build an escape route they will come. We cannot save the world, we cannot save even 1% of the world when we tried it in their lands they told us to piss off, now its is our turn. So you are saying the only thing that stops them escaping torture and death is the cost of escaping? I disagree, I think you haven't bothered to research this, I became aware of the differences between expectation and reality a while ago when the same subject touched Saudi Arabia. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/ghana/"Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited under the Criminal Code 1960, which criminalises acts of ‘unnatural carnal knowledge’. This provision carries a maximum penalty of three years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law. The law was inherited from the British during the colonial period, in which the English criminal law was imposed upon Ghana. Ghana retained the provision in its first Criminal Code upon independence, which remains in force, and continues to criminalise same-sex sexual activity today. An anti-LGBT Bill which would further criminalise LGBT people is currently before Parliament. There is some evidence of the law being enforced in recent years, with LGBT people being occasionally subject to arrest, though there is no evidence of convictions under the law. There have been consistent reports of discrimination and violence being committed against LGBT people in recent years, including assault, mob attacks, arbitrary detention, extortion, and discrimination in accessing services." As for discrimination and attacks, you can come here for that. No. You are out of date by the way as of July 2023 whereby ten years was the possible sentence and it was a new law passed with a whopping majority as far as I understand. There are many factors why people choose to leave or stay. However if you make it so that they can seek asylum by traveling 100 miles on their own or 4000 miles with two dangerous sea crossings one has to consider the risks and weigh it all in the balance. Think it through logically and place yourself in a dangerous situation and decide which you would do by considering the dangers on each side. It took me 3 months to decide to buy a trailer as I weighed up the pros and cons. Not on the same level of course. People do these sorts of things all the time and if you make impulse decisions easy then impulse decisions will increase, ask the supermarkets. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 16, 2023 12:23:47 GMT
So you are saying the only thing that stops them escaping torture and death is the cost of escaping? I disagree, I think you haven't bothered to research this, I became aware of the differences between expectation and reality a while ago when the same subject touched Saudi Arabia. www.humandignitytrust.org/country-profile/ghana/"Same-sex sexual activity is prohibited under the Criminal Code 1960, which criminalises acts of ‘unnatural carnal knowledge’. This provision carries a maximum penalty of three years’ imprisonment. Only men are criminalised under this law. The law was inherited from the British during the colonial period, in which the English criminal law was imposed upon Ghana. Ghana retained the provision in its first Criminal Code upon independence, which remains in force, and continues to criminalise same-sex sexual activity today. An anti-LGBT Bill which would further criminalise LGBT people is currently before Parliament. There is some evidence of the law being enforced in recent years, with LGBT people being occasionally subject to arrest, though there is no evidence of convictions under the law. There have been consistent reports of discrimination and violence being committed against LGBT people in recent years, including assault, mob attacks, arbitrary detention, extortion, and discrimination in accessing services." As for discrimination and attacks, you can come here for that. No. You are out of date by the way as of July 2023 whereby ten years was the possible sentence and it was a new law passed with a whopping majority as far as I understand. And that new law just expands the area covered under the regulations to include LGBTQ and makes a civil offence to proselytise homosexuality. There hasn't been a criminal prosecution since 2014. Its like Saudi, its illegal but unless you have bum sex in the town square everyone ignores it. Now you are confusing wishing to leave with getting asylum. We could discuss changing the parameters for getting asylum, I'm up for that. (Yes I appreciate its international law, but we're just exchanging ideas on a forum. ) |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 16, 2023 14:53:39 GMT
No. You are out of date by the way as of July 2023 whereby ten years was the possible sentence and it was a new law passed with a whopping majority as far as I understand. And that new law just expands the area covered under the regulations to include LGBTQ and makes a civil offence to proselytise homosexuality. There hasn't been a criminal prosecution since 2014. Its like Saudi, its illegal but unless you have bum sex in the town square everyone ignores it. Now you are confusing wishing to leave with getting asylum. We could discuss changing the parameters for getting asylum, I'm up for that. (Yes I appreciate its international law, but we're just exchanging ideas on a forum. )But we are referring to having a well founded fear of persecution and if a law exists that clearly supports that well founded fear then an asylum claim would be successful. Let us say 1000 gay people wish to leave and will use that well founded fear as a right to asylum. They have to balance up probabilities as regards a successful outcome between travelling 4000 miles and risking two dangerous sea crossings against staying at home and risking, you say a small risk, prison. That may put off most of them. If they could apply 100 miles away that balance of risks is swung to themaking the application side and more would apply especially as the UK is seen as the land of opportunity. Apply a little logic and I am sure you will see the problem. That is just Ghana, Christians in Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and India could make similar claims and those numbers run well into hundreds of thousands. If you put a free bar of chocolate on the far side of a muddy and dangerous waterhole there may not be many takers, if you put it on a table in front of people you will have to keep renewing it. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 16, 2023 15:20:31 GMT
And that new law just expands the area covered under the regulations to include LGBTQ and makes a civil offence to proselytise homosexuality. There hasn't been a criminal prosecution since 2014. Its like Saudi, its illegal but unless you have bum sex in the town square everyone ignores it. Now you are confusing wishing to leave with getting asylum. We could discuss changing the parameters for getting asylum, I'm up for that. (Yes I appreciate its international law, but we're just exchanging ideas on a forum. )Let us say 1000 gay people wish to leave and will use that well founded fear as a right to asylum. They have to balance up probabilities as regards a successful outcome between travelling 4000 miles and risking two dangerous sea crossings against staying at home and risking, you say a small risk, prison. That may put off most of them. If they could apply 100 miles away that balance of risks is swung to the making the application side and more would apply especially as the UK is seen as the land of opportunity. Apply a little logic and I am sure you will see the problem. That is just Ghana, Christians in Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and India could make similar claims and those numbers run well into hundreds of thousands. If you put a free bar of chocolate on the far side of a muddy and dangerous waterhole there may not be many takers, if you put it on a table in front of people you will have to keep renewing it. That is very debateable. A well founded fear would need evidence of others in the same position being imprisoned, tortured or killed. It is not enough to simply feel you can't express yourself. The rest of your post suggests those coming to the UK are not just economic migrants. If as you say the journey is so perilous. But that aside. I would expect thousands more applications but far fewer applicants reaching the UK. Then after a while as word gets out that applications are not handed out like confetti that demand would slow dramatically. What your average economic migrant sees at the moment is that if you reach the UK you don't come back. That you get 18 months of good food and shelter then join the next batch to be given amnesty and refugee status. That's because its so difficult to return someone to their homeland if they refuse to tell you where that is. And in the end you either look after them forever or let them go and earn their keep. I'm sure some might say you should kill them, but that's not going to happen. Others would say lock them up, but that's also tricky and expensive. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 16, 2023 16:33:49 GMT
But we are referring to having a well founded fear of persecution and if a law exists that clearly supports that well founded fear then an asylum claim would be successful. Let us say 1000 gay people wish to leave and will use that well founded fear as a right to asylum. They have to balance up probabilities as regards a successful outcome between travelling 4000 miles and risking two dangerous sea crossings against staying at home and risking, you say a small risk, prison. That may put off most of them. If they could apply 100 miles away that balance of risks is swung to the making the application side and more would apply especially as the UK is seen as the land of opportunity. Apply a little logic and I am sure you will see the problem. That is just Ghana, Christians in Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia and India could make similar claims and those numbers run well into hundreds of thousands. If you put a free bar of chocolate on the far side of a muddy and dangerous waterhole there may not be many takers, if you put it on a table in front of people you will have to keep renewing it. That is very debateable. A well founded fear would need evidence of others in the same position being imprisoned, tortured or killed. It is not enough to simply feel you can't express yourself. The rest of your post suggests those coming to the UK are not just economic migrants. If as you say the journey is so perilous. But that aside. I would expect thousands more applications but far fewer applicants reaching the UK. Then after a while as word gets out that applications are not handed out like confetti that demand would slow dramatically. What your average economic migrant sees at the moment is that if you reach the UK you don't come back. That you get 18 months of good food and shelter then join the next batch to be given amnesty and refugee status. That's because its so difficult to return someone to their homeland if they refuse to tell you where that is. And in the end you either look after them forever or let them go and earn their keep. I'm sure some might say you should kill them, but that's not going to happen. Others would say lock them up, but that's also tricky and expensive. If a law exists that means if one indulges in one's particular sexual proclivities then I would have thought that is a well founded fear. However the point is not necessarily specific to Ghana it is that those well founded fears exist in millions of peoples throughout the world. We could be as strict as we would like but the HR lawyers will have a field day and once you allow application outside the UK then all UK laws and rights will have to be applied including free access to as much legal help as they need. I repeat the numbers entitled without dispute to asylum are enormous (many millions) by any measure. Allowing claims anywhere in the world will only enable an army of claimants and if they do not get asylum what have they lost. If someone refuses to tell you where their homeland is they cannot claim asylum as a case cannot be assessed on its merits if you have no information. They become illegal migrants and as such can be locked up if there is no place to deport them to. Orkney has many prison huts. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 16, 2023 22:59:38 GMT
That is very debateable. A well founded fear would need evidence of others in the same position being imprisoned, tortured or killed. It is not enough to simply feel you can't express yourself. The rest of your post suggests those coming to the UK are not just economic migrants. If as you say the journey is so perilous. But that aside. I would expect thousands more applications but far fewer applicants reaching the UK. Then after a while as word gets out that applications are not handed out like confetti that demand would slow dramatically. What your average economic migrant sees at the moment is that if you reach the UK you don't come back. That you get 18 months of good food and shelter then join the next batch to be given amnesty and refugee status. That's because its so difficult to return someone to their homeland if they refuse to tell you where that is. And in the end you either look after them forever or let them go and earn their keep. I'm sure some might say you should kill them, but that's not going to happen. Others would say lock them up, but that's also tricky and expensive. If a law exists that means if one indulges in one's particular sexual proclivities then I would have thought that is a well founded fear. However the point is not necessarily specific to Ghana it is that those well founded fears exist in millions of peoples throughout the world. We could be as strict as we would like but the HR lawyers will have a field day and once you allow application outside the UK then all UK laws and rights will have to be applied including free access to as much legal help as they need. I repeat the numbers entitled without dispute to asylum are enormous (many millions) by any measure. Allowing claims anywhere in the world will only enable an army of claimants and if they do not get asylum what have they lost. If someone refuses to tell you where their homeland is they cannot claim asylum as a case cannot be assessed on its merits if you have no information. They become illegal migrants and as such can be locked up if there is no place to deport them to. Orkney has many prison huts. I think we've covered this now. We agree to differ. Thank you for your well presented views. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 17, 2023 8:20:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2023 8:32:43 GMT
You don't get it do you? There is a massive difference between a 'holiday' and 'asylum seekers'. People who pay to visit and people who are trafficked to a destination. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 17, 2023 8:49:01 GMT
You don't get it do you? There is a massive difference between a 'holiday' and 'asylum seekers'. People who pay to visit and people who are trafficked to a destination. You took the words out of my mouth. I can't believe anyone is so stupid as to believe a holiday in Rwanda is the same as living there. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 17, 2023 11:26:13 GMT
You don't get it do you? There is a massive difference between a 'holiday' and 'asylum seekers'. People who pay to visit and people who are trafficked to a destination. You took the words out of my mouth. I can't believe anyone is so stupid as to believe a holiday in Rwanda is the same as living there. why would it be more unsafe to live in a city permanently compared with visiting that city? |
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