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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 18, 2023 8:33:53 GMT
SRB said "But the existence of large numbers of Remainers is one thing. Few would dispute that. It is the notion that they are the ones secretly in charge, in the pay of the EU, and that the entire establishment is actively conspiring to sabotage us for the benefit of the EU which is rather more dubious. That is venturing into conspiracy theory territory."
There was a concerted campaign to remove Boris, basically by dirty tricks, from government because they knew that he was the main obstacle to dragging us back into the EU. Heseltine openly rejoiced when Boris was forced out because he said that opened the way to rejoin the EU. Boris was finished by the BBC's year long campaign on Partygate (when he went to NO parties) and Pinchergate (where Lord Macdonald accused Boris of lying about Pincher on the BBC - which was untrue also). Virtually all the Brexiteers have now been removed from govt by various means. Raab was removed by the Civil Service bullying etc.. The attempt to install Truss as PM was foiled by the Treasury (she sacked Scholar), the OBR (she snubbed them), the BoE (who deliberately sold gilts into a saturated market) and Sunak (who briefed against her in the city). It was nothing to do with her budget which actually borrowed far less than Sunak did. Truss had to be stopped because she actually IS pro-Brexit.
All of these are people/bodies that are stuffed full of EU supporters. Sunak is the EU's man. He claims to support Brexit but his actions say otherwise. He never campaigned for Brexit and he has never done anything to take advantage of Brexit. He said that within 100 days he would repeal all of EU laws - but has repealed none. His only action has been to agree the "Windsor Frame-up") which has effectively permanently locked NI into the single market and makes it highly unlikely that Stormont will reopen. Sunak has basically given the NI to the EU.
The return of "Lord" Cameron is also another nail in the coffin of taking any advantage of Brexit. Just as the installation of Sunak as PM was almost certainly arranged by the EU, I'd say that Cameron's return has their fingerprints all over it. Remember the EU has a track record of installing "technocrat" PMs - ask Italy. And they're influencing the politics of Poland by trying to install their own man (Tusk) by bribery using EU grants. They also bribe various powerful people in the UK - Mandelson and the Kinnocks for example receive very nice pensions from the EU (which we pay!) which are dependent on "the continuing support of the EU's interests".
I'm surprised that you're so naive about the way the EU works. The EU has always been a criminal organisation that operates by bribery and threats. This is not unusual in powerful political organisations. The EU doesn't even bother to try to cover it up much. Jean-Claude Junker was well known for dodgy dealings.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 18, 2023 9:02:18 GMT
SRB said: "If that is the best you can do, you havent got much. None of that constitutes a conspiracy theory, and some of it rests upon risible and simplistic assumptions of your own, eg the notion that people like me have supposedly "sold our souls" to Islam. When in fact all we are guilty of is believing that just because someone is a Muslim does not make them automatically bad. You appear to be observing this live and let live attitude of ours towards Muslims through the prism of what appears to be your own innate Islamophobia".
The trouble with having a "live and let live" attitude towards muslims is that they don't reciprocate it. The lesson of history is that muslims cannot live with any other religion - or even different sects of their own religion. Why do you think India was partitioned? And why do you think that large parts of Africa and the Middle East are afflicted by civil wars? Farage was talking last week about the hate marches were possibly the precursor to "religious wars" in the UK. And Farage has a very good track record of being right.
You accuse people of "islamophobia" but maybe you could tell us exactly which bits of the Islamic ideology you like? Is it the treatment of women or homosexuals for example?
I'm afraid, SRB, that you don't seem to be able to see "reality" yourself. You just dismiss things that don't fit your own ideology. So Nadine Dorries is "mad" and everything she said is wrong, but from what I've read (in the serialisation) seems to be perfectly plausible and some of it has been corroborated (on the record) by IDS, who said that the treatment of Boris was exactly what he received - and by the same people. I've only heard one of Nadine's claims being disputed - the gold wallpaper nonsense - and Nick Robinson has had to apologise for that because she was dead right. This was just one of many lies told to discredit Boris.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 18, 2023 9:06:57 GMT
This is a well known phenomenon in the field of psychology. The longer we have believed in something, the more strongly we have believed in it, the more emotional investment we have placed in it, the more difficult we find it to accept that we are wrong. To avoid having to accept that something we are so deeply invested in psychologically can be wrong, which would be psychologically painful to us and liable to undermine our self confidence, our brains tend to seek other people and things to blame for what went wrong, in order to avoid having to deconstruct a cherished belief. So we assume the belief is still right and any failure of it when applied must be the fault of bad actors sabotaging it. And you've just explained leftism in a nutshell. Ironic then that you can't see that you are a victim of that very thinking. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 18, 2023 9:35:22 GMT
The left believe diversity is good. The left believe that Multiculturalsim is working just fine. The left struggle to define racism yet are determined it should be eradicated. The left believe that no one should be offended but are quite prepared to offend, insult belittle denigrate and ignore political opponents. The left have sold their souls to Islam and believe that will work out well. If that is the best you can do, you havent got much. None of that constitutes a conspiracy theory, and some of it rests upon risible and simplistic assumptions of your own, eg the notion that people like me have supposedly "sold our souls" to Islam. When in fact all we are guilty of is believing that just because someone is a Muslim does not make them automatically bad. You appear to be observing this live and let live attitude of ours towards Muslims through the prism of what appears to be your own innate Islamophobia A conspiracy realistically only two people to work for it before it becomes a conspiracy, one of them may be misled by the other into what is teh desired outcome or the actual intent; that does not remove from being a conspiracy which requires a specific aim hidden from all others as the true intention. We know the left believe diversity is good, yet much evidence points to the fact that diversity has its disadvantages as well as its advantages. If these disadvantages are being deliberately hidden or downplayed by anyone with assistance it is a conspiracy. We know that comments are restricted where diversity in crime arises for 'community cohesion'. If the left believe that hiding something to keep the public in the dark as regards facts then that by any definition is a conspiracy. If you deny it happens then you are indeed living in an alternative reality. It is a similar tale for Multiculturalism. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 11:21:03 GMT
If that is the best you can do, you havent got much. None of that constitutes a conspiracy theory, and some of it rests upon risible and simplistic assumptions of your own, eg the notion that people like me have supposedly "sold our souls" to Islam. When in fact all we are guilty of is believing that just because someone is a Muslim does not make them automatically bad. You appear to be observing this live and let live attitude of ours towards Muslims through the prism of what appears to be your own innate Islamophobia I don't see a problem with it. The fact that you automatically accuse somebody of Islamophobia for stating a fact demonstrates how perverse your reasoning really is. Obviously your outburst is designed to try and shut somebody down, like screaming racism, which is what the Left do all of the time. It's why you hide behind abuse. Guess what, you're not in control and the rest of us know that. You're just somebody else's little tool.
Total nonsense. It is merely a refutation of the entirely false claim that I and others like me are in bed with Islam, for no better reason I can discern other than our refusal to condemn all Muslims. Such a slur has far more in common with conspiracist thinking than my refutation of it. The notion of left wingers and Muslims in some sort of nefarious cahoots with each other is yet another example of conspiracist type thinking right there. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 11:31:51 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality.You've sleep walked straight into that one. The Left have long since removed themselves from reality. As they believe women can have penises. The Left don't ground themselves in reality anymore, they ground themselves in 'feelings' and 'identity'. The Left also believe the mythical phenomenon of 'white privilege' is real, too. They weren't deemed "Loony" for no reason, you know. Today, many have become certifiable. When do you ever hear me obsessing about those subjects? The faux Blairite supposed left are more likely to do so than we genuine left wingers. Insofar as I have an opinion on such things it fundamentally boils down to live and let live. For example if someone chose to undergo a sex cjange procedure it is their life, doesnt bother me or anyone else I know at all, so am happy to just let them get on with it if thats what they want to do. They are in any case a vanishingly small percentage of the population so excessively worrying about them as both right wing conspiracists on the negative side, and extreme liberal faux lefties on the positive side tend to do, is a waste of good energy. We on the genuine left know there are far bigger problems to worry about And white privilege is a moveable feast in terms of what it supposedly means. But to say that people from non white backgrounds sometimes find it harder to get on because of innate racism here and there would be a statement of fact. That white people do not have the same problems most of the time is all that is really meant by white privilege as I might use the term. But until now it is not a term I tend to use all that much because unlike conspiracists on the matter I tend not to obsess about it |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 11:34:03 GMT
This is a well known phenomenon in the field of psychology. The longer we have believed in something, the more strongly we have believed in it, the more emotional investment we have placed in it, the more difficult we find it to accept that we are wrong. To avoid having to accept that something we are so deeply invested in psychologically can be wrong, which would be psychologically painful to us and liable to undermine our self confidence, our brains tend to seek other people and things to blame for what went wrong, in order to avoid having to deconstruct a cherished belief. So we assume the belief is still right and any failure of it when applied must be the fault of bad actors sabotaging it. And you've just explained leftism in a nutshell. Ironic then that you can't see that you are a victim of that very thinking. Unlike right wing conspiracy theorists I base my left wing views on observable facts and logical opinions derived from those facts. I don't invent conspiracy theories and false realities. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 18, 2023 11:36:53 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality.You've sleep walked straight into that one. The Left have long since removed themselves from reality. As they believe women can have penises. The Left don't ground themselves in reality anymore, they ground themselves in 'feelings' and 'identity'. The Left also believe the mythical phenomenon of 'white privilege' is real, too. They weren't deemed "Loony" for no reason, you know. Today, many have become certifiable. Women with penises again! The right are obsessed. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 11:56:35 GMT
If that is the best you can do, you havent got much. None of that constitutes a conspiracy theory, and some of it rests upon risible and simplistic assumptions of your own, eg the notion that people like me have supposedly "sold our souls" to Islam. When in fact all we are guilty of is believing that just because someone is a Muslim does not make them automatically bad. You appear to be observing this live and let live attitude of ours towards Muslims through the prism of what appears to be your own innate Islamophobia A conspiracy realistically only two people to work for it before it becomes a conspiracy, one of them may be misled by the other into what is teh desired outcome or the actual intent; that does not remove from being a conspiracy which requires a specific aim hidden from all others as the true intention. We know the left believe diversity is good, yet much evidence points to the fact that diversity has its disadvantages as well as its advantages. If these disadvantages are being deliberately hidden or downplayed by anyone with assistance it is a conspiracy. We know that comments are restricted where diversity in crime arises for 'community cohesion'. If the left believe that hiding something to keep the public in the dark as regards facts then that by any definition is a conspiracy. If you deny it happens then you are indeed living in an alternative reality. It is a similar tale for Multiculturalism. There have been instances where some left wingers were involved in a conspiracy of silence through fear of stoking racism, and that their assumption that certain ethnic or religious groups were inherent victims blinded them at times to evils a few of them might have been perpetrating. Most notably in the cases of the Pakistani paedophile gangs where a conspiracy of silence prevailed along with a marked reluctance to believe that victim groups could actually be perpetrators. It was certain that once known, far right racist extremists would use the issue to whip up hate, as they have done. Nevertheless this does not justify allowing such crimes to go unpunished. And cultural assumptions about non-muslim girls being fair game is something some on the left have been most reluctant to acknowledge. But I should also point out that utterly negative assumptions by the police that have nothing to do with the left, that these girls were low life individuals from the wrong side of the tracks and not worth wasting time on was a factor too. And the grooming gangs knew this which is why they targeted such girls. But congratulations. You have actually hit upon a bona fide example where a conspiracy of silence existed amongst some elements of the left. I however was never part of it and acknowledge that it happened and condemn it. But more generally this just reiterates another of my points about the nature of human psychology. We can all be potentially prone to it for the reasons I described in an earlier post, but most of the conspiracy thinking in recent years seems to be most obviously apparent on the right to everyone but themselves, perhaps because it is their long cherished beliefs which are most readily and increasingly often colliding with demonstrated reality. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 11:58:28 GMT
You've sleep walked straight into that one. The Left have long since removed themselves from reality. As they believe women can have penises. The Left don't ground themselves in reality anymore, they ground themselves in 'feelings' and 'identity'. The Left also believe the mythical phenomenon of 'white privilege' is real, too. They weren't deemed "Loony" for no reason, you know. Today, many have become certifiable. Women with penises again! The right are obsessed. Indeed, that was my first thought too. And they are such a vanishingly small percentage of the population too. But obsessive thinking does often tend to go hand in hand with conspiracy theory type assumptions. |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 18, 2023 12:11:08 GMT
You've sleep walked straight into that one. The Left have long since removed themselves from reality. As they believe women can have penises. The Left don't ground themselves in reality anymore, they ground themselves in 'feelings' and 'identity'. The Left also believe the mythical phenomenon of 'white privilege' is real, too. They weren't deemed "Loony" for no reason, you know. Today, many have become certifiable. Women with penises again! The right are obsessed. This thread is about alternate reality, with its main dig at right wingers. There couldn't be a better topic to demonstrate that the pot here is calling the kettle black, with the Left's obsession that women with penises exist in their warped reality! It really debunks the premise of this sorry thread's intention. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 12:14:36 GMT
SRB said " But the existence of large numbers of Remainers is one thing. Few would dispute that. It is the notion that they are the ones secretly in charge, in the pay of the EU, and that the entire establishment is actively conspiring to sabotage us for the benefit of the EU which is rather more dubious. That is venturing into conspiracy theory territory." There was a concerted campaign to remove Boris, basically by dirty tricks, from government because they knew that he was the main obstacle to dragging us back into the EU. Heseltine openly rejoiced when Boris was forced out because he said that opened the way to rejoin the EU. Boris was finished by the BBC's year long campaign on Partygate (when he went to NO parties) and Pinchergate (where Lord Macdonald accused Boris of lying about Pincher on the BBC - which was untrue also). Virtually all the Brexiteers have now been removed from govt by various means. Raab was removed by the Civil Service bullying etc.. The attempt to install Truss as PM was foiled by the Treasury (she sacked Scholar), the OBR (she snubbed them), the BoE (who deliberately sold gilts into a saturated market) and Sunak (who briefed against her in the city). It was nothing to do with her budget which actually borrowed far less than Sunak did. Truss had to be stopped because she actually IS pro-Brexit. All of these are people/bodies that are stuffed full of EU supporters. Sunak is the EU's man. He claims to support Brexit but his actions say otherwise. He never campaigned for Brexit and he has never done anything to take advantage of Brexit. He said that within 100 days he would repeal all of EU laws - but has repealed none. His only action has been to agree the "Windsor Frame-up") which has effectively permanently locked NI into the single market and makes it highly unlikely that Stormont will reopen. Sunak has basically given the NI to the EU. The return of "Lord" Cameron is also another nail in the coffin of taking any advantage of Brexit. Just as the installation of Sunak as PM was almost certainly arranged by the EU, I'd say that Cameron's return has their fingerprints all over it. Remember the EU has a track record of installing "technocrat" PMs - ask Italy. And they're influencing the politics of Poland by trying to install their own man (Tusk) by bribery using EU grants. They also bribe various powerful people in the UK - Mandelson and the Kinnocks for example receive very nice pensions from the EU (which we pay!) which are dependent on "the continuing support of the EU's interests". I'm surprised that you're so naive about the way the EU works. The EU has always been a criminal organisation that operates by bribery and threats. This is not unusual in powerful political organisations. The EU doesn't even bother to try to cover it up much. Jean-Claude Junker was well known for dodgy dealings. Classic conspiracy theory thinking right there. Boris was forced out not because of anything to do with the EU but because of his own serial dishonesty bringing parliament and his party into utter disrepute, to the point where he was being widely recognised by his own MPs as having become a liability. To put it even more bluntly, he was removed for being hopelessly crap at his job, and a charlatan of poor character. Yet somehow, none of that matters. It is all just part of a plot by Remainers. You seem incapable of recognising reality in any other way than through the prism of your own conspiracy theory, where everything that happens or doesnt happen is all part of the same EU/Remainer plot. Nothing much seems to happen that you don't interpret as in some way connected to it. You are a conspiracy theorist utterly obsessed with the overarching, all encompassing nature of the conspiracy. If David Cameron were to fart at the cabinet table, you'd probably see it as an attempt to gas Brexiteers out of the room, lol |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 12:17:49 GMT
Women with penises again! The right are obsessed. This thread is about alternate reality, with its main dig at right wingers. There couldn't be a better topic to demonstrate that the pot here is calling the kettle black, with the Left's obsession that women with penises exist in their warped reality! It really debunks the premise of this sorry thread's intention. No insight at all. You bemoan the left's supposed obsession with men with penises, whilst yourself being apparently obsessed with the subject of men with penises. Whilst I - a bona fide left winger - attach very little importance to it at all. You need to look in the mirror. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2023 12:22:01 GMT
You've sleep walked straight into that one. The Left have long since removed themselves from reality. As they believe women can have penises. The Left don't ground themselves in reality anymore, they ground themselves in 'feelings' and 'identity'. The Left also believe the mythical phenomenon of 'white privilege' is real, too. They weren't deemed "Loony" for no reason, you know. Today, many have become certifiable. Women with penises again! The right are obsessed. The right are obsessed and the left are deluded. There's no hope! |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 18, 2023 12:23:34 GMT
And you've just explained leftism in a nutshell. Ironic then that you can't see that you are a victim of that very thinking. Unlike right wing conspiracy theorists I base my left wing views on observable facts and logical opinions derived from those facts. I don't invent conspiracy theories and false realities. LOL!  |
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