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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 13:02:40 GMT
The phenomena of social (world view) fracture really has nothing to do with Trump Repeated inappropriate (fixated) references to him tell me what i know about the virtual reality the writer inhabits. Like I said Trump didn't start it it's been around as long as people have been probably. Trump is a high profile public figure that has recently tapped into it. You can argue Obama did the same in a slightly more subtle way with his hope slogans. Or the 'white heat of technology" What you are describing here is politics - ie distinct world views fostered for political reasons. I'm talking about something rather more dramatic that started appearing in the social media age (2010). The shift is that these views no longer have any significant overlap or are not subsets of a significant shared wider view. I realise i'm describing social disintegration. I also have a theory about why it happened and the tactic of continuous escalation that caused it.
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 13:19:23 GMT
Like I said Trump didn't start it it's been around as long as people have been probably. Trump is a high profile public figure that has recently tapped into it. You can argue Obama did the same in a slightly more subtle way with his hope slogans. Or the 'white heat of technology" What you are describing here is politics - ie distinct world views fostered for political reasons. I'm talking about something rather more dramatic that started appearing in the social media age (2010). The shift is that these views no longer have any significant overlap or are not subsets of a significant shared wider view. I realise i'm describing social disintegration. I also have a theory about why it happened and the tactic of continuous escalation that caused it. Oh I would certainly agree that social media has exacerbated the problem. It's so much easier now for people to live in echo chambers.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 13:20:40 GMT
When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades... LOL!
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 13:24:59 GMT
No one has ever lied so often as Trump. From day one when he lied about the size of the crowd at his inauguration to his big lie about a stolen election. He's pathological. Jeez...
What does it matter? Trump is no longer the president. He was never your president. He never did anything that adversely affected you.
He was never any of your business and now he's gone.
That you were ever, let alone still are, fixated with him is bordering on mental illness.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 16, 2023 13:34:30 GMT
In your opinion. And therein lies the issue: You consider your views to be unassailable fact and opposing views to be nonsense/conspiracy theories etc. And those holding those views think the same of yours. So the question becomes: Who is to be the arbiter of which views are "Correct". And it certainly isn't you. When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades. The truth isn't found in the blog sites of ''scientists'' who usually have some link to the fossil fuel industries. No they are not and herein lies the whole problem. There is no arbiter of truth in science there are only theories and observations that may confirm or refute those theories. If AGW was a true actuality then the forecasts in models made using the theory as the template would all be working out nicely. They are not. The observations and readings are subject to much correcting and tweaking and the observations made by scientists every bit as qualified as those within the supposed consensus are increasingly finding that warming is an effect that is subject to much influence by many known and unknown factors. Creationists are desperate to find the example in nature whereby it can be shown that evolutionary theory cannot reproduce that which exists. They have come close but failed and all they need to do is succeed once. AGW theory has failed so many times on so many levels that it has now turned around whereby faith is required to accept the narrative and faith is most certainly not science.
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 16, 2023 13:35:54 GMT
No one has ever lied so often as Trump. From day one when he lied about the size of the crowd at his inauguration to his big lie about a stolen election. He's pathological. Jeez...
What does it matter? Trump is no longer the president. He was never your president. He never did anything that adversely affected you.
He was never any of your business and now he's gone.
That you were ever, let alone still are, fixated with him is bordering on mental illness.
He's running for president. When he's safely back in his tacky beach resort with an electronic ankle bracelet he won't matter anymore. In the meantime he is intent on destabilizing our greatest international ally and talking about withdrawing from NATO. He buddies up with the likes of Putin. Orban and little Kimmy. If you don't think he matters you're really not paying attention. He needs locking up for his crimes.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 13:40:20 GMT
Jeez... What does it matter? Trump is no longer the president. He was never your president. He never did anything that adversely affected you. He was never any of your business and now he's gone. That you were ever, let alone still are, fixated with him is bordering on mental illness.
He's running for president. When he's safely back in his tacky beach resort with an electronic ankle bracelet he won't matter anymore. In the meantime he is intent on destabilizing our greatest international ally and talking about withdrawing from NATO. He buddies up with the likes of Putin. Orban and little Kimmy. If you don't think he matters you're really not paying attention. He needs locking up for his crimes. Wow! I didn't realise you were that far gone.
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 13:45:00 GMT
No one has ever lied so often as Trump. From day one when he lied about the size of the crowd at his inauguration to his big lie about a stolen election. He's pathological. Jeez...
What does it matter? Trump is no longer the president. He was never your president. He never did anything that adversely affected you.
He was never any of your business and now he's gone.
That you were ever, let alone still are, fixated with him is bordering on mental illness.
As the old saying goes when America sneezes the rest of the world catches cold. It's 2023 not 1903, we can't just pretend America isn't there, whether you look like it or not America is the world's leading power and it's decisions and actions do impact on us.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 13:49:25 GMT
When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades. The truth isn't found in the blog sites of ''scientists'' who usually have some link to the fossil fuel industries. No they are not and herein lies the whole problem. There is no arbiter of truth in science there are only theories and observations that may confirm or refute those theories. If AGW was a true actuality then the forecasts in models made using the theory as the template would all be working out nicely. They are not. The observations and readings are subject to much correcting and tweaking and the observations made by scientists every bit as qualified as those within the supposed consensus are increasingly finding that warming is an effect that is subject to much influence by many known and unknown factors. Creationists are desperate to find the example in nature whereby it can be shown that evolutionary theory cannot reproduce that which exists. They have come close but failed and all they need to do is succeed once. AGW theory has failed so many times on so many levels that it has now turned around whereby faith is required to accept the narrative and faith is most certainly not science. You have more patience than me when it comes to explaining these things. Although sadly I suspect that you're banging your head against the proverbial brick wall.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 13:51:56 GMT
Jeez...
What does it matter? Trump is no longer the president. He was never your president. He never did anything that adversely affected you.
He was never any of your business and now he's gone.
That you were ever, let alone still are, fixated with him is bordering on mental illness.
As the old saying goes when America sneezes the rest of the world catches cold. It's 2023 not 1903, we can't just pretend America isn't there, whether you look like it or not America is the world's leading power and it's decisions and actions do impact on us. Uh huh. But it still doesn't address any of the points raised in my post.
But nice try.
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Post by wapentake on Nov 16, 2023 13:52:44 GMT
First off to address your reference to brexit,people calling it the eussr is a fair and humorous comparison not because they believe it a clone of that communist state but the monolithic bureaucracy and the imagined democratic institutions within resemble that. Don’t you think we have enough clowns of our own without adding another tier of unnecessary idiocy,why do you think the red wall fell? because longstanding labour voters tired of being ignored by people like Blair successive govts signing treaties which few of them fully understood or cared to and without reference to the people who then voted leave. Blair clone (or should that be clown) Starmer openly plotted a return,you may call that a conspiracy theory but it’s not it’s factual,thereby not natural conservative voters voted for them in droves because they were the only ones offering some sort of support for enacting their decision. Further and the point made regarding conspiracy theories it’s becoming harder with the advent of AI to sort the wheat from the chaff and still get caught out with falsehoods,disinformation has always happened but the internet and now AI enable that to become more widespread and faster so that people react before they realise or can be persuaded they’ve been duped. If you look where we are now you have people concerned about the level of asylum seekers and movement of people idly labelled racist and it’s the same with the present Gaza situation,question the actions of Israel and the label anti semite is applied whose conspiracy theories are those?
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Post by sandypine on Nov 16, 2023 16:51:24 GMT
No they are not and herein lies the whole problem. There is no arbiter of truth in science there are only theories and observations that may confirm or refute those theories. If AGW was a true actuality then the forecasts in models made using the theory as the template would all be working out nicely. They are not. The observations and readings are subject to much correcting and tweaking and the observations made by scientists every bit as qualified as those within the supposed consensus are increasingly finding that warming is an effect that is subject to much influence by many known and unknown factors. Creationists are desperate to find the example in nature whereby it can be shown that evolutionary theory cannot reproduce that which exists. They have come close but failed and all they need to do is succeed once. AGW theory has failed so many times on so many levels that it has now turned around whereby faith is required to accept the narrative and faith is most certainly not science. You have more patience than me when it comes to explaining these things. Although sadly I suspect that you're banging your head against the proverbial brick wall. It is not for their benefit, their minds are closed, it is the other casual observers that may arrive looking for information.
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2023 17:08:24 GMT
I think that there is a lot of truth in what is said in the OP but I also think that people denying factual evidence and observeable reality in favour of a pre conceived narrative that they are emotionally invested in is not new or confined to the right. Based on my experience it's just what most people are like, it's just been more visible on the right recently as people like Trump, Johnson etc have tapped into it. really? - I'm not convinced that it was the 'right' who were stating that women can have a penis, you can grow a cervix or that men can suffer from endometriosis.
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 17, 2023 8:08:09 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality. But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us. But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies. Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well. In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views. We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact. It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way. This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself. No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions. Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong. There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today. I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that. But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all. That's because there IS a conspiracy of remainers trying to drag us back into the EU - and they're almost certainly encouraged and funded by the EU. Why do you think it so long to leave the EU and the remainers actually hijacked the govt's agenda and passed the Surrender Law (the Benn act) making it illegal to leave the EU without their permission FFS. As for the scientists they're not lying. Some believe that climate change is happening and is caused by CO2and some believe that climate change is happening but it's not caused by CO2 but by other factors. There are many different views - scientists often don't all agree. The liars are the politicians and media who claim the science is settled. It's not.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2023 8:25:58 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality. But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us. But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies. Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well. In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views. We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact. It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way. This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself. No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions. Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong. There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today. I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that. But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all. That's because there IS a conspiracy of remainers trying to drag us back into the EU - and they're almost certainly encouraged and funded by the EU. Why do you think it so long to leave the EU and the remainers actually hijacked the govt's agenda and passed the Surrender Law (the Benn act) making it illegal to leave the EU without their permission FFS. As for the scientists they're not lying. Some believe that climate change is happening and is caused by CO2and some believe that climate change is happening but it's not caused by CO2 but by other factors. There are many different views - scientists often don't all agree. The liars are the politicians and media who claim the science is settled. It's not. Stating your conspiracy theory to be a fact without evidence does not make it so. It is just a doubling down on your alternate reality. And 97% of climate scientists following the science, attempt the almost certain reality that man made global warming is happening. That is about as settled as science ever gets. But you dont want to believe it so it cannot be true, and is presumably explicable only by a conspiracy theory?
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