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Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2023 11:02:05 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality.
But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us.
But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies.
Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well.
In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views.
We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact.
It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way.
This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself.
No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it
When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions.
Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong.
There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today.
I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that.
But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all.
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 11:20:16 GMT
There is nothing intrinsically far out or absurd about theorising that forces are acting deliberately against your interests and in favour of theirs.
You need to re calibrate slightly. Most of leftism is a 'conspiracy theory' of sorts.
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Post by Dan Dare on Nov 16, 2023 11:36:29 GMT
Someone else who believes that history began when they first stopped wearing short trousers.
'Conspiracy theories' didn't just get going when Trump arrived on the scene or when Farge's 'insurgency' led to Brexit.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 16, 2023 11:39:25 GMT
Brexit is not a failure, if it were, then, inflation adjusted we'd be selling less to the EU than we did as members.
You spoke of alternative realities and included fantasy.
Read the ONS trade statistics.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 16, 2023 11:39:47 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality. But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us. But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies. Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well. In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views. We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact. It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way. This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself. No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions. Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong. There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today. I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that. But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all. In your opinion. And therein lies the issue: You consider your views to be unassailable fact and opposing views to be nonsense/conspiracy theories etc. And those holding those views think the same of yours. So the question becomes: Who is to be the arbiter of which views are "Correct". And it certainly isn't you. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 16, 2023 11:48:48 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality. But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us. But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies. Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well. In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views. We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact. It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way. This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself. No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions. Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong. There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today. I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that. But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all. I think your argument might carry more weight if it was a bot more balanced - as it is it just comes over as a whinge against the 'right', you fail to acknowledge that the 'Left' have just as many issues when it comes to believing in alternate realities. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 12:14:43 GMT
I think your argument might carry more weight if it was a bot more balanced - as it is it just comes over as a whinge against the 'right', you fail to acknowledge that the 'Left' have just as many issues when it comes to believing in alternate realities. I would add to this that i think a potentially interesting discussion has been avoided by the OP By making things partisan, SRB is leading the conversation away from discussing the observation that society is dramatically fracturing into distinct world views |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 12:28:19 GMT
I think that there is a lot of truth in what is said in the OP but I also think that people denying factual evidence and observeable reality in favour of a pre conceived narrative that they are emotionally invested in is not new or confined to the right. Based on my experience it's just what most people are like, it's just been more visible on the right recently as people like Trump, Johnson etc have tapped into it.
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 16, 2023 12:29:29 GMT
There have always been big differences of opinion between left and right and any other imaginable way of differentiating sets of opinions. But it used to be broadly true that everyone knew what the basic facts were but just differed in what to do about them or in how to change them. Whatever our opinions, we were all generally grounded in reality. But in recent years, and indeed the problem has been developing for decades, people have started to believe in different supposed facts and alternate realities. This has not just been happening here but elsewhere too. We saw it in spades in the USA with the coming of Trump to the political scene. This disconnect from reality and belief in an alternate reality born of paranoid conspiracy theorising appears to be particularly marked on the right, though the left is not entirely immune either, always ready to see the dark hand of the deep state if something does not go well for us. But for years now the right have been nurturing the concept of a big bad EU that is dominating us and see it as a malignant force, and got into the habit of blaming it for all our ills. They also began to increasingly reject any science which did not sit well with their own lifelong ideologies. Many of them have come to believe in a conspiracy of Remainers, in cahoots with the EU, to drag us back in at any cost, with any failure of Brexit supposedly the fault of Remainers sabotaging their own country. That scientists offering evidence of man-made global warming are all somehow for some reason lying to us as part of some sort of conspiracy, and that because expressing phobic opinions is less tolerated by the majority than it used to be, freedom of speech is under dire threat as well. In this country many of them have convinced themselves of a paranoid conspiracy theory that intermeshes all these strands, by which the deep state is conspiring to subvert the will of the people by dragging us back into the EU, and if Brexit isnt working, this can only be explicable to them as sabotage by a bunch of Remainer fifth columnists working to undermine it. And all this seems to them to be part and parcel of a wider plot involving most of the world's scientists - presumably working for dark forces - to use what they assume to be fake science to gain control over us and destroy our freedoms. All of which is reinforced in their own minds by increased levels of public censure for phobic views. We see them on this forum all the time, calling the EU the EUSSR, saying that we are on the road to a Soviet dictatorship, that anyone saying unwelcome things will be put in gulags, that freedom of speech is dying if not dead. Even as they say these things with total freedom and failing to recognise the irony in that fact. It is difficult to debate sensibly with people believing in fake realities that exist only in their own heads, so we will often end up ridiculing instead. Yet so convinced are they by their fake realities that they genuinely see those of us who believe in reality, the real thing, as delusional for failing to see it their way. This is making sensible debate very difficult, even in the mind zone. And I thought it worthwhile possibly to have a debate about this problem itself. No doubt a few of them will show up soon to tell me how deluded I am, or that I am being wilfully dishonest, as they double down on their conspiracy theories. With links to "evidence" of varying degrees of dubiousness, often the outpourings of their fellow conspiracy theorists, sometimes quoting dodgy science. And recently one of their heroic truth tellers, because she is telling them what they want to hear, is - of all people - Mad Nad, Nadine Dorries - who is also herself seemingly detached from reality and a rather intellectually challenged conspiracy theorist. She too cannot believe that everything she ever believed in is turning out to be a crock of shit without invoking conspiracy theories to explain it When facts change and assumptions based on them turn out to be wrong, sensible people change their opinions. Less sensible ones invoke conspiracy theories in order to carry on thinking that they were right all along, and in order to somehow explain all that has gone wrong. There seems to be a lot of this happening on the right today. I expect some of them will be along soon to call me an idiot, delusional, someone who is part of their chosen conspiracy against them and the country, an extremist, far this or far that. But the greatest threat to democracy is people voting on the basis of fake conspiracy theories that have little to do with reality at all. In your opinion. And therein lies the issue: You consider your views to be unassailable fact and opposing views to be nonsense/conspiracy theories etc. And those holding those views think the same of yours. So the question becomes: Who is to be the arbiter of which views are "Correct". And it certainly isn't you. When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades. The truth isn't found in the blog sites of ''scientists'' who usually have some link to the fossil fuel industries. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 12:32:57 GMT
In your opinion. And therein lies the issue: You consider your views to be unassailable fact and opposing views to be nonsense/conspiracy theories etc. And those holding those views think the same of yours. So the question becomes: Who is to be the arbiter of which views are "Correct". And it certainly isn't you. When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades. The truth isn't found in the blog sites of ''scientists'' who usually have some link to the fossil fuel industries. Again in my experience people believe what they want to believe, most people will claim the opposite but really would rather hear a comforting lie than an uncomfortable truth. It goes a long way to explaining a lot of the conflict in the world, past and present IMHO. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 16, 2023 12:40:22 GMT
When it comes to AGW the arbiters of truth are the climate scientists who have been producing evidence for decades. The truth isn't found in the blog sites of ''scientists'' who usually have some link to the fossil fuel industries. Again in my experience people believe what they want to believe, most people will claim the opposite but really would rather hear a comforting lie than an uncomfortable truth. It goes a long way to explaining a lot of the conflict in the world, past and present IMHO. If they can convince themselves that AGW isn't happening or that it's all China's fault it excuses them from actually doing anything to mitigate the problem. They can't even accept responsibility for the CO2 output from China which is a direct result of all the Chinese manufactured products that fill their houses. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 16, 2023 12:45:32 GMT
I think that there is a lot of truth in what is said in the OP but I also think that people denying factual evidence and observeable reality in favour of a pre conceived narrative that they are emotionally invested in is not new or confined to the right. Based on my experience it's just what most people are like, it's just been more visible on the right recently as people like Trump, Johnson etc have tapped into it. The phenomena of social (world view) fracture really has nothing to do with Trump Repeated inappropriate (fixated) references to him tell me what i know about the virtual reality the writer inhabits. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Nov 16, 2023 12:51:16 GMT
No one has ever lied so often as Trump.
From day one when he lied about the size of the crowd at his inauguration to his big lie about a stolen election.
He's pathological.
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 12:51:28 GMT
I think that there is a lot of truth in what is said in the OP but I also think that people denying factual evidence and observeable reality in favour of a pre conceived narrative that they are emotionally invested in is not new or confined to the right. Based on my experience it's just what most people are like, it's just been more visible on the right recently as people like Trump, Johnson etc have tapped into it. The phenomena of social (world view) fracture really has nothing to do with Trump Repeated inappropriate (fixated) references to him tell me what i know about the virtual reality the writer inhabits. Like I said Trump didn't start it it's been around as long as people have been probably. Trump is a high profile public figure that has recently tapped into it. You can argue Obama did the same in a slightly more subtle way with his hope slogans. |
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Post by happyhornet on Nov 16, 2023 12:52:16 GMT
No one has ever lied so often as Trump. From day one when he lied about the size of the crowd at his inauguration to his big lie about a stolen election. He's pathological. And his supporters don't care, because he tells them what they want to hear. |
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