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Post by sandypine on Nov 7, 2023 9:25:31 GMT
So basically no response other than seeking to negotiate with people who have just murdered hundreds of your citizens and have taken another few hundred hostage. I would think politically it would be a death sentence for whomsoever implemented it. On another note do you realistically think that if Israel did that then HAMAS would not be shouting victory and not planning one more outrage to further their cause. One has to be realistic not just in one's own position but the existing and prospective positions of one's enemies. Israel was in a no win situation and one has to recall that HAMAS rely on Palestinian deaths to keep the whole issue live. A competent Israeli government over many years wouldn’t have got themselves this position. But yes the least bad option on 8/10 would be to recognise that military solutions simply cause more hatred and more death on both sides and instead sought peaceful long term solution to end this. We are back to history yet the question is what was the right response to 7/10. You are saying do nothing except seek to negotiate and seek a long term solution. If one tries these things and fails, and they have been tried and failed, what does one do next? Israel has to protect its citizens from those who wish to torture and kill them, and have tortured and killed them, so Israel also has to be realistic and create a protection zone for its citizens. How do they do that without upsetting Palestinians. They withdrew from Gaza as part of a peace process and that worked well as Fatah and Hamas ended up fighting each other as part of a power play. One has to grasp the reality of the hatreds that envelop the area and compromise by anyone is a sign of weakness and it will be exploited as history too often shows us. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 10:42:19 GMT
The major problem is the Hatred that many Arabs have and have had for over 100 years for the Jews. A hatred based to a large extent on the fact that the Jews are not Muslims. I have no problem in anyone trying to solve the Arab Israeli problem, but what do you think anyone can do to get over that particular part of the problem? If the Jewish state really wants peace , it will need to form a little objective balanced view of the history and mistakes in either side that have got us to where we are than you display in your post. Peace is what the Jews have strived for but it has always been met by wars and terrorism. Yes major changes would need to be made on both sides if peace was available. But while the Jews preferring peace, have been repeatedly forced into violence by a large percentage of the Arab population, the Arabs clearly have an underlying hatred of the Jews. It is this Arab hatred that seems to me to be the crux of the problem. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2023 11:57:14 GMT
A lot of posts saying Israel should do this, Israel should do that - a dearth of posts suggesting what the Palestinianse should do.
Perhaps embrace a 2 state agreement for once in their life?
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Post by Ripley on Nov 7, 2023 14:26:30 GMT
Don't be absurd. Of course it's not Israel's fault that hostages were taken, but Israel plainly understood that their aerial bombardment of Gaza could kill their own people, and it did not prevent them from proceeding. They also didn't consider negotiating for the hostages before beginning their retaliatory strikes . Obviously the lives of the hostages are secondary to their end goal of annihilating Hamas. Let's just be honest about that. "The Israeli prime minister has told families that freeing the hostages is “one of the missions” of the war being waged against Hamas, but has so far not said that he will prioritise obtaining their release above the military objective of destroying the extremist Islamist organisation." www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/05/israeli-hostages-relatives-call-for-concessions-to-secure-their-releaseBut the basic fact is that Hamas have not released the hostages. Israel has set out the criteria for a ceasefire - it's up to the Palestinians if they want one. Hamas could release all the hostages today (and repatriate the bodies of the dead) if they chose - but we all know they will not. Hamas has already released three of the hostages...that's a start. Israel claims to know that Hamas has a command centre beneath a hospital. Why haven't they mounted a Seal Team 6-type surgical strike instead of bombing 10,000 civilians? |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2023 17:49:32 GMT
But the basic fact is that Hamas have not released the hostages. Israel has set out the criteria for a ceasefire - it's up to the Palestinians if they want one. Hamas could release all the hostages today (and repatriate the bodies of the dead) if they chose - but we all know they will not. Hamas has already released three of the hostages...that's a start. Israel claims to know that Hamas has a command centre beneath a hospital. Why haven't they mounted a Seal Team 6-type surgical strike instead of bombing 10,000 civilians? Israel are trying to get the civilians out of the way - thousands are currently leaving through the safe routes.. |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 7, 2023 20:29:24 GMT
If the Jewish state really wants peace , it will need to form a little objective balanced view of the history and mistakes in either side that have got us to where we are than you display in your post. Peace is what the Jews have strived for but it has always been met by wars and terrorism. Yes major changes would need to be made on both sides if peace was available. But while the Jews preferring peace, have been repeatedly forced into violence by a large percentage of the Arab population, the Arabs clearly have an underlying hatred of the Jews. It is this Arab hatred that seems to me to be the crux of the problem. You seem to forget how many Palestinians have been murdered by settlers while the Israeli government looked the other way. And what is the rationale for the continuous building of illegal settlements? How can that not be seen as provocative? How is that supposed to promote peace? |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 7, 2023 20:30:32 GMT
Hamas has already released three of the hostages...that's a start. Israel claims to know that Hamas has a command centre beneath a hospital. Why haven't they mounted a Seal Team 6-type surgical strike instead of bombing 10,000 civilians? Israel are trying to get the civilians out of the way - thousands are currently leaving through the safe routes.. The easiest way to ensure the safety of civilians would be to cease bombing them, and instead go after Hamas control centres, would it not? |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 21:03:36 GMT
Peace is what the Jews have strived for but it has always been met by wars and terrorism. Yes major changes would need to be made on both sides if peace was available. But while the Jews preferring peace, have been repeatedly forced into violence by a large percentage of the Arab population, the Arabs clearly have an underlying hatred of the Jews. It is this Arab hatred that seems to me to be the crux of the problem. You seem to forget how many Palestinians have been murdered by settlers while the Israeli government looked the other way. And what is the rationale for the continuous building of illegal settlements? How is that supposed to promote peace? No I don't forget. I have, for quite some years now condemned the right-wing Israeli government for the building of illegal settlements, I have posted that IMO the right-wing governments that now govern Israel have got the bit between their teeth and are set on controlling all of Palestine. I have also posted that 30 years of moderate Socialist Zionism got nothing but threats (plural) of annihilation, wars (plural) of annihilation and years (plural) of terrorism before Likud evolved. It is because of this history that Likud evolved which is why I believe the Palestinian Arabs are the architects of their own distress. It seems to me that peace has never even been on the Palestinian Arabs wish list, while the elimination of Israel has topped it since 1948. |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 7, 2023 21:50:29 GMT
You seem to forget how many Palestinians have been murdered by settlers while the Israeli government looked the other way. And what is the rationale for the continuous building of illegal settlements? How is that supposed to promote peace? No I don't forget. I have, for quite some years now condemned the right-wing Israeli government for the building of illegal settlements, I have posted that IMO the right-wing governments that now govern Israel have got the bit between their teeth and are set on controlling all of Palestine. I have also posted that 30 years of moderate Socialist Zionism got nothing but threats (plural) of annihilation, wars (plural) of annihilation and years (plural) of terrorism before Likud evolved. It is because of this history that Likud evolved which is why I believe the Palestinian Arabs are the architects of their own distress. It seems to me that peace has never even been on the Palestinian Arabs wish list, while the elimination of Israel has topped it since 1948. The building of settlements is a hostile and destructive act whose roadblocks, checkpoints, segregated roads and other infrastructure designed to protect settlers severely limit Palestinian movement. It has been happening ever since Likud first came to power in 1977 under Menachim Begin, and the party developed settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, providing financial incentives and tax concessions to encourage Israeli Jews to move to the occupied Palestinian territories. Land and water sources are appropriated for the use of settlements, adversely impacting the livelihoods of farmers and limiting the urban development of Palestinian towns and cities. Because they create a series of disconnected enclaves throughout the West Bank, these settlements also limit the possibility of a contiguous state, undermining the Palestinians’ right to self-determination. By the end of Likud's rule in 1983 they had placed around 23,700 settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories. Today, around 620,000 Israeli settlers live in more than 200 settlements, all of which are illegal under international law. Moving a population into occupied territory is a clear violation of International Humanitarian Law and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This long-term practice is abhorrent and can in no way be construed as a peaceful gesture. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 22:08:31 GMT
No I don't forget. I have, for quite some years now condemned the right-wing Israeli government for the building of illegal settlements, I have posted that IMO the right-wing governments that now govern Israel have got the bit between their teeth and are set on controlling all of Palestine. I have also posted that 30 years of moderate Socialist Zionism got nothing but threats (plural) of annihilation, wars (plural) of annihilation and years (plural) of terrorism before Likud evolved. It is because of this history that Likud evolved which is why I believe the Palestinian Arabs are the architects of their own distress. It seems to me that peace has never even been on the Palestinian Arabs wish list, while the elimination of Israel has topped it since 1948. The building of settlements is a hostile and destructive act whose roadblocks, checkpoints, segregated roads and other infrastructure designed to protect settlers severely limit Palestinian movement. It has been happening ever since Likud first came to power in 1977 under Menachim Begin, and the party developed settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, providing financial incentives and tax concessions to encourage Israeli Jews to move to the occupied Palestinian territories. Land and water sources are appropriated for the use of settlements, adversely impacting the livelihoods of farmers and limiting the urban development of Palestinian towns and cities. Because they create a series of disconnected enclaves throughout the West Bank, these settlements also limit the possibility of a contiguous state, undermining the Palestinians’ right to self-determination. By the end of Likud's rule in 1983 they had placed around 23,700 settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories. Today, around 620,000 Israeli settlers live in more than 200 settlements, all of which are illegal under international law. Moving a population into occupied territory is a clear violation of International Humanitarian Law and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This long-term practice is abhorrent and can in no way be construed as a peaceful gesture. Which is why I have never suggested it did. Your post suggests that you never read my post because if you had you would see that I am in agreement with you. It seems that you missed the part of my post about the first 30 years of moderate Israeli government that yielded nothing but serious trouble from the Arabs. |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 7, 2023 22:12:12 GMT
The building of settlements is a hostile and destructive act whose roadblocks, checkpoints, segregated roads and other infrastructure designed to protect settlers severely limit Palestinian movement. It has been happening ever since Likud first came to power in 1977 under Menachim Begin, and the party developed settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip, providing financial incentives and tax concessions to encourage Israeli Jews to move to the occupied Palestinian territories. Land and water sources are appropriated for the use of settlements, adversely impacting the livelihoods of farmers and limiting the urban development of Palestinian towns and cities. Because they create a series of disconnected enclaves throughout the West Bank, these settlements also limit the possibility of a contiguous state, undermining the Palestinians’ right to self-determination. By the end of Likud's rule in 1983 they had placed around 23,700 settlers in the occupied Palestinian territories. Today, around 620,000 Israeli settlers live in more than 200 settlements, all of which are illegal under international law. Moving a population into occupied territory is a clear violation of International Humanitarian Law and the Fourth Geneva Convention. This long-term practice is abhorrent and can in no way be construed as a peaceful gesture. Which is why I have never suggested it did. Your post suggests that you never read my post because if you had you would see that I am in agreement with you. It seems that you missed the part of my post about the first 30 years of moderate Israeli government that yielded nothing but serious trouble from the Arabs. I read your post in its entirety. What I'm disagreeing with is your assertion that the Israelis prefer peace. Clearly the continuous building of illegal settlements, so very destructive to the Palestinian population, cannot be seen as any sort of overture for peace. Rather it is arguably a provocation, for all the reasons I mentioned above. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 7, 2023 22:17:23 GMT
Israel are trying to get the civilians out of the way - thousands are currently leaving through the safe routes.. The easiest way to ensure the safety of civilians would be to cease bombing them, and instead go after Hamas control centres, would it not? they are |
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Post by see2 on Nov 8, 2023 10:14:27 GMT
Which is why I have never suggested it did. Your post suggests that you never read my post because if you had you would see that I am in agreement with you. It seems that you missed the part of my post about the first 30 years of moderate Israeli government that yielded nothing but serious trouble from the Arabs. I read your post in its entirety. What I'm disagreeing with is your assertion that the Israelis prefer peace. Clearly the continuous building of illegal settlements, so very destructive to the Palestinian population, cannot be seen as any sort of overture for peace. Rather it is arguably a provocation, for all the reasons I mentioned above. I believe I made my attack on Likud extremism clear in my earlier post. I also made my opinion clear on the damage done to the Israelis by the Arabs during the first 30 years of moderate leadership of the Israelis which IMO set the foundations for the arrival of Likud and the present day Likud led actions on the illegal settlements. The Israelis sought peace the Arabs chose violence. Where do you think the Arab desire to destroy Israel came from if it was not from their hatred of the Jews / Israelis? Not forgetting that the Quran says that Palestine was given to the Israelis. |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 8, 2023 16:15:21 GMT
I read your post in its entirety. What I'm disagreeing with is your assertion that the Israelis prefer peace. Clearly the continuous building of illegal settlements, so very destructive to the Palestinian population, cannot be seen as any sort of overture for peace. Rather it is arguably a provocation, for all the reasons I mentioned above. I believe I made my attack on Likud extremism clear in my earlier post. I also made my opinion clear on the damage done to the Israelis by the Arabs during the first 30 years of moderate leadership of the Israelis which IMO set the foundations for the arrival of Likud and the present day Likud led actions on the illegal settlements. The Israelis sought peace the Arabs chose violence. Where do you think the Arab desire to destroy Israel came from if it was not from their hatred of the Jews / Israelis? Not forgetting that the Quran says that Palestine was given to the Israelis. I'm not suggesting that you approve of the settlements. You have made it clear that you don't. I am simply differing with the way you appear to label the Arabs as violent and the Israelis as peaceful. Years of illegal settlements have caused great hardship to the Palestinians and in my opinion that is a hostile provocative act, incompatible with a long-term goal of peace. Your opinion will probably differ. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 8, 2023 16:57:49 GMT
I believe I made my attack on Likud extremism clear in my earlier post. I also made my opinion clear on the damage done to the Israelis by the Arabs during the first 30 years of moderate leadership of the Israelis which IMO set the foundations for the arrival of Likud and the present day Likud led actions on the illegal settlements. The Israelis sought peace the Arabs chose violence. Where do you think the Arab desire to destroy Israel came from if it was not from their hatred of the Jews / Israelis? Not forgetting that the Quran says that Palestine was given to the Israelis. I'm not suggesting that you approve of the settlements. You have made it clear that you don't. I am simply differing with the way you appear to label the Arabs as violent and the Israelis as peaceful. Years of illegal settlements have caused great hardship to the Palestinians and in my opinion that is a hostile provocative act, incompatible with a long-term goal of peace. Your opinion will probably differ. The Israelis wanted peace and cooperation with the Arabs when they were allowed Jurisdiction over part of Palestine, it meant freedom and protection for the Jews and by the Jews in their own country for the first time in around 1500 years. The immediate reaction from the Palestinian Arabs and five Arab armies was, destroy Israel. That is why I post that the Jews / Israelis wanted peace, the Arabs chose conflict. That conflict eventually led to the appearance of Likud and violent Israeli reactions to Arab violence. |
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