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Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 9:41:50 GMT
I agree with your first paragraph but would point out that these problems began after the Arab war to destroy Israel. If by the "Zionist Israeli government" you mean the right wing government of Likud now in control, I would remind you of the fact the pre-Likud 1979 Israeli governments were moderate, left-wing and secular. IMO the extremist government that now controls Israel, is the product of the decades of aggression by the Arabs towards Israel. And as we have seen, answering aggression with more aggression just isn't serving the interests of either party, is it? The Arabs chose aggression and conflict against the Jews ever since the Ottomans dropped the shackles of dhimmitude from the Jews in 1858. Before 1858 the Jews lived as second class citizens in an apartheid state. The Jews had never been given the chance to live free and in peace in Palestine since the 7th century. How could anyone expect the Israelis to live with permanent aggression and conflict from the Arabs without fighting back? Incidentally. Golda Meir, the leader of the Israelis in the early 1970s said. When the Arabs learn to love their children more than they HATE US, there will be peace. Meir was a Labor Zionist, i.e. a Socialist Zionist, married to a Socialist. She lived in the turmoil years after the Arabs lost the war to destroy Israel, a period of Arab suicide bombers and planted explosions to kill as many Israelis as they could. IMO that period exposed the hatred the Arabs had for the Israelis, and lit the blue touch paper that produced Likud in 1972, and the first extremist Likud government in 1979. Violence by the Arabs against the Jews created the first extremist right-wing Likud government. From then on it was a case of extremism fighting extremism.
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Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 9:57:07 GMT
That is a very biased view on history See2 that makes this thread something of a false premise.
The events of 7/10 were an affront to humanity and cannot be remotely justified. The events post 7/10 in Gaza similarly.
The right answer to "7/10" would have been seeking over many years to find a genuine compromise solution such that both Jews and Palestinians can live peacefully in that area of the world. It is not for one side to oppress the other backed by the primary world power.
Had that approach been undertaken, perhaps "7/10" would not have happened. Sadly the actions of the Israeli government since "7/10" have not only killed thousands of Palestinian children but made another future "7/10" all the more likely.
Who is brave enough to have the foresight to seek a negotiated peace rather than the easy revenge option of yet more military violence
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Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 9:59:09 GMT
How does one address the long standing hatred of the Jews held by the Arabs? Not making it worse by Jews stealing Arab lands for their illegal settlements might be a start. If the Arabs had won their war to destroy Israel they would have stolen all the land of Israel for themselves. Just giving land back to the Arabs didn't work in Gaza did it. IMO the underlying problem is and has been the disrespect and the Hatred so many of the Arabs have for these Non-Muslim Jews.
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Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 10:16:10 GMT
That is a very biased view on history See2 that makes this thread something of a false premise. The events of 7/10 were an affront to humanity and cannot be remotely justified. The events post 7/10 in Gaza similarly. The right answer to "7/10" would have been seeking over many years to find a genuine compromise solution such that both Jews and Palestinians can live peacefully in that area of the world. It is not for one side to oppress the other backed by the primary world power. Had that approach been undertaken, perhaps "7/10" would not have happened. Sadly the actions of the Israeli government since "7/10" have not only killed thousands of Palestinian children but made another future "7/10" all the more likely. Who is brave enough to have the foresight to seek a negotiated peace rather than the easy revenge option of yet more military violence My post was based upon facts. If you can show where my facts are wrong please show, I'm always willing to learn. IMO, nothing justifies 7/10 or the Israeli answer. But they are the reality of life. The evidence suggests that Hamas and many Arabs have a deep hatred of both the Jews and of Israel, a hatred that I believe is religiously held and is not open to negotiation. IMO, the only hope for peace is if the Arab world turns against Hamas and others who either directly or indirectly attack Israel, and say as fellow Muslims 'Not In My Name'.
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Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 10:36:56 GMT
The "reality of life" appears a bit of a blank cheque to appalling inhumanity.
Both the Israeli Government and the Palestinians and the "Arab World" will need to make difficult compromises if peace is to be found and all human beings - whether from Jewish or Palestinian background - live with reasonable security in that part of the world. Military force backed by military and political support from the world's primary super power will not succeed in delivering peace to either party.
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Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 10:46:09 GMT
The "reality of life" appears a bit of a blank cheque to appalling inhumanity. Both the Israeli Government and the Palestinians and the "Arab World" will need to make difficult compromises if peace is to be found and all human beings - whether from Jewish or Palestinian background - live with reasonable security in that part of the world. Military force backed by military and political support from the world's primary super power will not succeed in delivering peace to either party. No, sadly no one can undo what has already been done. IMO there is only one answer which is to allow the Jews / Israelis to live in peace, and then start to undo, where possible, the wrongs done, that will allow the wrongs that have been done to begin to unravel themselves.
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Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 10:51:27 GMT
Absolutely no one can undo what has already happened and recent events have made peace even more difficult.
If Jewish people wish to live in peace in Israel, their (and other regional) government will have to make difficult compromises to find a political solution satisfactory to all. There can be no peace imposed by military force - even with the support of the world's primary super power.
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Post by bancroft on Nov 6, 2023 11:03:19 GMT
There can be no peace, 55% of Israelis vote for governments that tighten the screw on Palestinian people as they want more land for Israel. Just look at the historic maps. The followers of the right wing look at the end game they know which mosques to target to end the peace process and make it look like Arab aggression enabling them to make more land grabs.
The people of Palestine want their land back and the international Muslim brotherhood will support them to wage a low intensity war.
No end in sight unless the balance of power changes in the Middle East, if not the West Bank will become more Israeli and more Palestinians will become refugees.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 6, 2023 15:30:18 GMT
That is a very biased view on history See2 that makes this thread something of a false premise. The events of 7/10 were an affront to humanity and cannot be remotely justified. The events post 7/10 in Gaza similarly. The right answer to "7/10" would have been seeking over many years to find a genuine compromise solution such that both Jews and Palestinians can live peacefully in that area of the world. It is not for one side to oppress the other backed by the primary world power. Had that approach been undertaken, perhaps "7/10" would not have happened. Sadly the actions of the Israeli government since "7/10" have not only killed thousands of Palestinian children but made another future "7/10" all the more likely. Who is brave enough to have the foresight to seek a negotiated peace rather than the easy revenge option of yet more military violence What is this, the answer to 7/10 does not lie in history it lies in what should have happened immediately post 7/10. If you are saying the Jews are to blame for a massacre of dozens of ravers, the slaughter of babies and the torture and butchery of Israeli citizens then that suggests your moral compass is at best askew. Was it not the Nazis that intimated that Jews were behaving badly and as such were deserving of punishment.
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Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 15:47:47 GMT
"The jews" and the Israeli government are two different things, Sandy.
As I said, the events of "7/10" were an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli government over many years prior to the incident.
The events in Gaza post 7/10 are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of Hamas on 7/10.
The future events in xxxx are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli Government in Gaza post 7/10.
If people in that region want to live in peace, that cycle has to be broken and painful compromises will need to be made by all.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 6, 2023 16:00:32 GMT
"The jews" and the Israeli government are two different things, Sandy. As I said, the events of "7/10" were an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli government over many years prior to the incident. The events in Gaza post 7/10 are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of Hamas on 7/10. The future events in xxxx are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli Government in Gaza post 7/10. If people in that region want to live in peace, that cycle has to be broken and painful compromises will need to be made by all. They may well be different things but they are rarely separated as it is assumed that all Jews have a sympathetic ear for a homeland as we are seeing all too clearly on our own streets. We can explain the holocaust in the same way if you wish. If Jews did not control money if Jews did not plan to take over the world etc etc. Any event has causes that lead up to it but the event stands on its own. If we accept that circumstances created 7/10 then we also have to accept that 7/10 had consequences, one of which is what we are seeing. Who is going to break the cycle and will it be taken as weakness if they do. Israel withdrew from Gaza yet that got them nowhere just more of the same. There have been many first steps and compromise is seen as a useless card to play.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 16:01:44 GMT
Not making it worse by Jews stealing Arab lands for their illegal settlements might be a start. If the Arabs had won their war to destroy Israel they would have stolen all the land of Israel for themselves. Just giving land back to the Arabs didn't work in Gaza did it. IMO the underlying problem is and has been the disrespect and the Hatred so many of the Arabs have for these Non-Muslim Jews. None of which justifies Israeli land thefts today. You seem to be too biased to understand that. Also most of the Jews living in Israel in 1948 were first generation immigrants. Most of the Arabs and their ancestors had lived there for centuries. None of which excuses Arab hostility but it does need to be understood through that prism. It also needs to be acknowledged that most Jews living in Israel today were born and raised there and it is the only home they know. The Arabs need to accept that. Peace will only come about as a result of a viable two state solution. And for that the Jews need to return the lands they have stolen. And the Arabs need to accept the existence of Israel and do all they can to reign in their own extremists. But all that is happening now is that via death and destruction, both sides are reinforcing the intransigence of each other. It was Hamas who kicked off the latest round of intensified mutual malice with their appalling atrocities on October 7th. But we do need to understand that the atmosphere which made such attacks possible has been in existence for decades in the form of Israeli occupations, land thefts, and blockades. We need to get at the root causes of mutual animosity on both sides, and those with influence on either need to be banging a few heads together, not supporting one side against the other and ignoring or seeking to justify any wrongs on that side. As you repeatedly do whilst laughably pretending to be the only unbiased one here. It is at about this point that you will usually try and accuse me of being an antisemite. Most of us on the left are used to that from you and your ilk. Yes there have been a few antisemites on the left and most of us condemn them. But you and your ilk frequently seek to cheapen the very meaning of the word "antisemitism" by applying the label to anyone on the left who is not totally supportive of Israel in all things or who have any sympathy for the oppressed Palestinians. And you thus demonstrate that you don't know what real antisemitism is. Or if you do you are wilfully cheapening the word for dubious political aims. The left are the ones who stood side by side with the Jews against real antisemites in the battle of Cable Street. We loathe the real antisemites out there who deny the holocaust and all the horror it involved. And who would happily see it happening again. Just because I do not support a Jewish settler stealing the lands of an Arab, or the Jewish sniper shooting dead an Arab child, does not mean I support Jewish women and children being slowly gassed to death in gas chambers. So it is about time biased fools such as yourself learnt what real antisemitism is - and what it is not. Your lot have cheapened the word by weaponising it for dubious politically motivated reasons.
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Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 16:06:54 GMT
"The jews" and the Israeli government are two different things, Sandy. As I said, the events of "7/10" were an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli government over many years prior to the incident. The events in Gaza post 7/10 are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of Hamas on 7/10. The future events in xxxx are an affront to humanity and cannot be justified. They can however, at least in part, be explained by the behaviour of the Israeli Government in Gaza post 7/10. If people in that region want to live in peace, that cycle has to be broken and painful compromises will need to be made by all. They may well be different things but they are rarely separated as it is assumed that all Jews have a sympathetic ear for a homeland as we are seeing all too clearly on our own streets. We can explain the holocaust in the same way if you wish. If Jews did not control money if Jews did not plan to take over the world etc etc. Any event has causes that lead up to it but the event stands on its own. If we accept that circumstances created 7/10 then we also have to accept that 7/10 had consequences, one of which is what we are seeing. Who is going to break the cycle and will it be taken as weakness if they do. Israel withdrew from Gaza yet that got them nowhere just more of the same. There have been many first steps and compromise is seen as a useless card to play. Much of that makes no sense. But yes as I have said, just as 7/10 is at least partially explained by the actions of the Israeli government previously, the events currently unfolding in Gaza are at least partially explained by the events on 7/10 and no doubt future loss of life in Israel will at least partially be explained by the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza. Until a political solution is found, involving painful sacrifices for both sides, peace cannot be imposed by military might and more lives will be lost.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 6, 2023 16:22:14 GMT
They may well be different things but they are rarely separated as it is assumed that all Jews have a sympathetic ear for a homeland as we are seeing all too clearly on our own streets. We can explain the holocaust in the same way if you wish. If Jews did not control money if Jews did not plan to take over the world etc etc. Any event has causes that lead up to it but the event stands on its own. If we accept that circumstances created 7/10 then we also have to accept that 7/10 had consequences, one of which is what we are seeing. Who is going to break the cycle and will it be taken as weakness if they do. Israel withdrew from Gaza yet that got them nowhere just more of the same. There have been many first steps and compromise is seen as a useless card to play. Much of that makes no sense. But yes as I have said, just as 7/10 is at least partially explained by the actions of the Israeli government previously, the events currently unfolding in Gaza are at least partially explained by the events on 7/10 and no doubt future loss of life in Israel will at least partially be explained by the actions of the Israeli government in Gaza. Until a political solution is found, involving painful sacrifices for both sides, peace cannot be imposed by military might and more lives will be lost. It does make sense as you are saying that Israel is to blame for what happened on 7/10, even if you temper that with 'partially'. We could say the Jews are 'partially' to blame for the holocaust as if they did not behave as they did towards Germans then it would not have happened. The thread is as regards what was the right answer to 7/10 and so far no one seems willing to say what that should have been. Do you want to give it a try?
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Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 16:31:33 GMT
Absolutely no one can undo what has already happened and recent events have made peace even more difficult. If Jewish people wish to live in peace in Israel, their (and other regional) government will have to make difficult compromises to find a political solution satisfactory to all. There can be no peace imposed by military force - even with the support of the world's primary super power. Unable to to undo recent events is my already stated position. They could undo some of the Israeli encroachment onto Arab land that was caused by the Arab wars to destroy Israel. And it is possible for reason to to dominate in terms of living side by side in peace. I agree no peace can be imposed by Military force. But survival for Israel has required military force. All the Israelis wanted was to live in peace in the area of Jurisdiction Allocated to them by the UN. And that was totally and unequivocally denied to them by the Arabs. THE ARABS CHOSE VIOLENCE. So the persistent whinge by the Arabs and their supporters around the world of 'poor me' is a totally false position. The Arabs are the architects of their own distress. But by Allah, they are experts at moaning and at doing what happens all too often, that is Blaming the Jews when things go wrong. If the Arabs had allowed the Israelis to live in peace in a two state setup back in 1948, the Middle east would be a very different place today.
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