|
Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 16:33:48 GMT
If the Arabs had won their war to destroy Israel they would have stolen all the land of Israel for themselves. Just giving land back to the Arabs didn't work in Gaza did it. IMO the underlying problem is and has been the disrespect and the Hatred so many of the Arabs have for these Non-Muslim Jews. None of which justifies Israeli land thefts today. You seem to be too biased to understand that. Also most of the Jews living in Israel in 1948 were first generation immigrants. Most of the Arabs and their ancestors had lived there for centuries. None of which excuses Arab hostility but it does need to be understood through that prism. It also needs to be acknowledged that most Jews living in Israel today were born and raised there and it is the only home they know. The Arabs need to accept that. Peace will only come about as a result of a viable two state solution. And for that the Jews need to return the lands they have stolen. And the Arabs need to accept the existence of Israel and do all they can to reign in their own extremists. But all that is happening now is that via death and destruction, both sides are reinforcing the intransigence of each other. It was Hamas who kicked off the latest round of intensified mutual malice with their appalling atrocities on October 7th. But we do need to understand that the atmosphere which made such attacks possible has been in existence for decades in the form of Israeli occupations, land thefts, and blockades. We need to get at the root causes of mutual animosity on both sides, and those with influence on either need to be banging a few heads together, not supporting one side against the other and ignoring or seeking to justify any wrongs on that side. As you repeatedly do whilst laughably pretending to be the only unbiased one here. It is at about this point that you will usually try and accuse me of being an antisemite. Most of us on the left are used to that from you and your ilk. Yes there have been a few antisemites on the left and most of us condemn them. But you and your ilk frequently seek to cheapen the very meaning of the word "antisemitism" by applying the label to anyone on the left who is not totally supportive of Israel in all things or who have any sympathy for the oppressed Palestinians. And you thus demonstrate that you don't know what real antisemitism is. Or if you do you are wilfully cheapening the word for dubious political aims. The left are the ones who stood side by side with the Jews against real antisemites in the battle of Cable Street. We loathe the real antisemites out there who deny the holocaust and all the horror it involved. And who would happily see it happening again. Just because I do not support a Jewish settler stealing the lands of an Arab, or the Jewish sniper shooting dead an Arab child, does not mean I support Jewish women and children being slowly gassed to death in gas chambers. So it is about time biased fools such as yourself learnt what real antisemitism is - and what it is not. Your lot have cheapened the word by weaponising it for dubious politically motivated reasons. You start with nonsense opinion so I don't even bother to read the rest.
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Nov 6, 2023 16:57:50 GMT
There can be no peace, 55% of Israelis vote for governments that tighten the screw on Palestinian people as they want more land for Israel. Just look at the historic maps. The followers of the right wing look at the end game they know which mosques to target to end the peace process and make it look like Arab aggression enabling them to make more land grabs. The people of Palestine want their land back and the international Muslim brotherhood will support them to wage a low intensity war. No end in sight unless the balance of power changes in the Middle East, if not the West Bank will become more Israeli and more Palestinians will become refugees. NO, 55% of Israelis vote for a right-wing extremist government because 30 years of moderate Labor-Socialist Zionist governments got nothing but wars violence and terrorism from the Arabs. It is not unusual for right-wing extremists to take power when a country has a problem for which they have no answer. There is a whole history of denigration and violence by the Arabs against the Jews, so playing the 'always blame the Jews' game, doesn't work for me. I see no end in sight until those Arabs active against Israel stop hating the Jews and find a way of living in peace alongside of them.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 17:09:53 GMT
So you see no role for Israel in finding compromises to enable all human beings in that area to live in peace?
|
|
|
Post by Ripley on Nov 6, 2023 17:13:59 GMT
And as we have seen, answering aggression with more aggression just isn't serving the interests of either party, is it? I'm not sure that that expecting Israel to sit back and do nothing whilst they are attacked is very practical. As I said in my earlier post, Israel's response was predictable. Nobody expects anyone to sit back and not respond to an attack. But now the Palestinian death toll is at 10,000 or more and Gaza is dust. The civilian population is starving and they have little to no access to clean, potable water. They are homeless and sleeping outdoors, terrorized by continued bombardment day and night. There is no safe place to go. Many of the injured can't obtain medical assistance. Thousands of their children have been killed in air strikes and bodies continue to pile up. Does this satisfy Israel? It does not. Israel refuses to allow a ceasefire or even a pause in hostilities. Take a look at what an Israeli sent me today. blogs.timesofisrael.com/dear-world-i-dont-care/
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Nov 6, 2023 17:14:21 GMT
So you see no role for Israel in finding compromises to enable all human beings in that area to live in peace? I did ask what was the right response to 7/10 in the first instance. You seem to be saying Israel should have done something different after 7/10. I can go along with that but what could they have done that was different and better?
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 17:17:54 GMT
I'll happily answer, Sandy but am a bit confused what exactly you are asking.
maybe you got a word wrong or maybe I am just being a bit thick. Could you clarify.
|
|
|
Post by sandypine on Nov 6, 2023 17:20:59 GMT
I'll happily answer, Sandy but am a bit confused what exactly you are asking. maybe you got a word wrong or maybe I am just being a bit thick. Could you clarify. The same as the thread title. What was the right response to 7/10. By Israel, ranging from giving up Israel to wiping Gaza off the map.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 17:28:36 GMT
Well as I say 7/10 didn't happen in isolation. It happened, at least partially, as a result of years of years of mismanagement of the palestinian issue by the Israeli government.
A sensible, albeit politically very difficult admittedly, response on 8/10 would have been to look in the mirror, realise that military force and fences will never ensure peace for its citizens and immediately announce that it wanted to agree a negotiated settlement with Palestinians and seek to engage , through intermediaries if necessary, with all the key players in the conflict to begin to work out what that settlement could look like.
The revenge war in Palestine is simply creating more hatred and more future violence against Israeli citizens.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 17:49:17 GMT
So you see no role for Israel in finding compromises to enable all human beings in that area to live in peace? Obviously, stopping the Jewish land thefts and giving back the lands they have stolen in the west bank will have to be a part of any peace. But see 2 thinks that is such obvious nonsense that he claims he wouldnt read any further. Yet he thinks he is the only unbiased one. The guy has no insight into himself at all, and does not realise what a biased clown he is. Because you are right. Israel too needs to undo wrongs as part of any peace. Anyone who is not biased towards either side can see that.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 17:57:30 GMT
He does seem a bit one sided. If you are looking to resolve a conflict, always worth walking in the other sides shoes a little
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 6, 2023 18:04:20 GMT
There are a lot of calls for 'compromise' - but for some reason they all expect Israel alone to compromise.....
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Nov 6, 2023 18:05:51 GMT
I'm not sure that that expecting Israel to sit back and do nothing whilst they are attacked is very practical. As I said in my earlier post, Israel's response was predictable. Nobody expects anyone to sit back and not respond to an attack. But now the Palestinian death toll is at 10,000 or more and Gaza is dust. The civilian population is starving and they have little to no access to clean, potable water. They are homeless and sleeping outdoors, terrorized by continued bombardment day and night. There is no safe place to go. Many of the injured can't obtain medical assistance. Thousands of their children have been killed in air strikes and bodies continue to pile up. Does this satisfy Israel? It does not. Israel refuses to allow a ceasefire or even a pause in hostilities. Israel have set their condition for a ceasefire - the release of all Hostages, however Hamas has rejected this.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2023 18:30:24 GMT
Well as I say 7/10 didn't happen in isolation. It happened, at least partially, as a result of years of years of mismanagement of the palestinian issue by the Israeli government. A sensible, albeit politically very difficult admittedly, response on 8/10 would have been to look in the mirror, realise that military force and fences will never ensure peace for its citizens and immediately announce that it wanted to agree a negotiated settlement with Palestinians and seek to engage , through intermediaries if necessary, with all the key players in the conflict to begin to work out what that settlement could look like. The revenge war in Palestine is simply creating more hatred and more future violence against Israeli citizens. So you dance around the question with mealy-mouthed "answers" which do not want to look to a peaceful future at all. Israel have 1400 slaughtered like animals and you want them to negotiate with the perpetrators? I think only people from a certain religion might think in this perverse way. As I've posted before, I believe that pacifism is a one way street to destruction.
|
|
|
Post by dappy on Nov 6, 2023 18:34:47 GMT
There are a lot of calls for 'compromise' - but for some reason they all expect Israel alone to compromise..... No one is suggesting that only Israel has to compromise
|
|
|
Post by Ripley on Nov 6, 2023 18:46:35 GMT
As I said in my earlier post, Israel's response was predictable. Nobody expects anyone to sit back and not respond to an attack. But now the Palestinian death toll is at 10,000 or more and Gaza is dust. The civilian population is starving and they have little to no access to clean, potable water. They are homeless and sleeping outdoors, terrorized by continued bombardment day and night. There is no safe place to go. Many of the injured can't obtain medical assistance. Thousands of their children have been killed in air strikes and bodies continue to pile up. Does this satisfy Israel? It does not. Israel refuses to allow a ceasefire or even a pause in hostilities. Israel have set their condition for a ceasefire - the release of all Hostages, however Hamas has rejected this. Israel will agree to a ceasefire if all the hostages are released? They know Hamas can't deliver all the hostages because Israeli airstrikes have killed about 60 of them so far. I suppose their lives were judged less valuable than the goal of annihilating Hamas.
|
|