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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:00:02 GMT
Two completely different ideas which you have conflated. Just because people have the right to believe what they want, doesn't mean that you have to respect those beliefs or even like the people who hold them. Lazy thinking like this is causing a lot of problems Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. So, you're demanding forced respect and love against human will. You're the enemy of everything I believe in. I find you hateful. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 12, 2023 15:13:19 GMT
I find it a bit peculiar that Islamophobia is so readily reconised but Israelophobia isn't.
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 15:15:08 GMT
Two completely different ideas which you have conflated. Just because people have the right to believe what they want, doesn't mean that you have to respect those beliefs or even like the people who hold them. Lazy thinking like this is causing a lot of problems Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. This is just more muddled thinking. People will tend to dislike people on the basis of their beliefs. The whole notion behind (say) freedom of speech or conscience is that people have a right to hold those beliefs anyway. It is not supposed to be an instruction to respect or like everyone regardless of horse-shit in their heads. This is an example of how you can take a reasonable good idea and turn it something idiotic. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:15:56 GMT
Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. So, you're demanding forced respect and love against human will. You're the enemy of everything I believe in. I find you hateful. I'm not your biggest fan either. But hating everyone who thinks differently from you is the road to intolerance, discord, strife, violence, malice and eventually totalitarianism. That your need to hate overwhelms any ability you might otherwise have had to understand that is your problem, not mine. And who said anything about forcing people to love one another? Not me, as ever you attack shit about me that you made up yourself, thus showcasing your intellectual limitation. I merely suggested we try to be decent human beings and avoid nurturing hatred for everyone who thinks differently from us. Because too far down that road lies an eventual totalitarian state more likely to build gas chambers than hospitals, concentration camps than schools, torture chambers than GP surgeries. And hating people for their beliefs might seem cool to you, but it will seem a lot less so when the powers that be decide your beliefs are reason to hate and persecute you. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 15:18:04 GMT
I find it a bit peculiar that Islamophobia is so readily reconised but Israelophobia isn't. You are right to be suspicious. The whole thing is a con that rests on idiotic conflations. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:19:06 GMT
Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. This is just more muddled thinking. People will tend to dislike people on the basis of their beliefs. The whole notion behind (say) freedom of speech or conscience is that people have a right to hold those beliefs anyway. It is not supposed to be an instruction to respect or like everyone regardless of horse-shit in their heads. This is an example of how you can take a reasonable good idea and turn it something idiotic. You insist upon doubling down on shite, as you are so often wont to do. There is nothing muddled about understanding that everyone hating each other for thinking differently is the road to intolerance. Your attempts to avoid recognising that obvious fact is highlighting the most obvious example of muddled thinking around here. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 12, 2023 15:22:24 GMT
If you seriously want to tackle intolerance then I'd suggest that there is far more fertile ground off of this forum than on it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:26:11 GMT
I find it a bit peculiar that Islamophobia is so readily reconised but Israelophobia isn't. You are comparing apples and oranges and trying to posit a false equivalence. Because one is a religion. The other is a nation state led by a government. Two very different things. Criticism of any state is not an example of a phobia. If we are critical of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, does that make us Russophobic? If we are critical of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, does that make us Iraqiphobic? You are essential trying to equate any criticism of Israel with bigotry, which is utter tosh frankly. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 15:28:19 GMT
This is just more muddled thinking. People will tend to dislike people on the basis of their beliefs. The whole notion behind (say) freedom of speech or conscience is that people have a right to hold those beliefs anyway. It is not supposed to be an instruction to respect or like everyone regardless of horse-shit in their heads. This is an example of how you can take a reasonable good idea and turn it something idiotic. You insist upon doubling down on shite, as you are so often wont to do. There is nothing muddled about understanding that everyone hating each other for thinking differently is the road to intolerance. Your attempts to avoid recognising that obvious fact is highlight the most obvious example of muddled thinking around here. The 'road to intolerance' might be not allowing people to express themselves naturally and not allowing society to properly confront and contradict bad belief systems. Like many on the left you seem fixed on this notion that the best thing to do is to force everyone to respect everything. It sounds like the road to hell to me. |
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Post by Ripley on Nov 12, 2023 15:31:44 GMT
Because it IS anti-semitism. There was about 5 minutes of sympathy for Israel after the vile muslim terrorist attack on October 7th, before the most of the world turned to "victim blaming". Of course the muslim world was still celebrating and applauding Hamas - no sympathy from them obviously. Now the Left wing world just wants Israel to go away and wait for the next Hamas terror attack. Unfortunately, this time, this is not going to happen. Israel has vowed to destroy Hamas - and most Israelis support that. But all we hear from the muslim apologists is that the Palestinians are an innocent people who just want peace and they don't support Hamas. "Hamas is not the Palestinian people" etc. You have to be very naive to believe that. They voted for Hamas as their government - and many say that if you had another vote they'd vote them in again. They want the Jews yo be eliminated and they want their land. Listen to what they're saying on the Hate marches around this country. "From the river to the sea" etc. In mosques all around the UK muslim imams are calling for "armed jihad" and death to the Jews. GB news have presented recorded evidence of this hate speech to the police - but I'm afraid they will do nothing. People tried to appease Hitler in the 1930s but it didn't work. The muslims are a far more powerful enemy than Hitler. I have to disagree with conflating criticism of the Israeli government with anti-semitism. Even Jews are critical of how the government is handling the response to Hamas. Even the families of the hostages are critical of the government that prioritizes eradicating Hamas over getting the hostages out alive. Some of us don't believe that killing everyone in Gaza will eradicate Hamas. It will only deepen the hatred and give rise to another generation of terrorists. The leaders of Hamas are not even present in Gaza, so how does bombing Gaza civilians cut the head off the snake? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 12, 2023 15:31:54 GMT
I should hate you? Of course not. You havent done me any harm. If we start hating people for their opinions we really will be in trouble... I agree with your sentiment, but that's the stock in trade of the left with people routinely being "No platformed" or branded "Far right" simply for challenging left wing narratives. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:38:55 GMT
You insist upon doubling down on shite, as you are so often wont to do. There is nothing muddled about understanding that everyone hating each other for thinking differently is the road to intolerance. Your attempts to avoid recognising that obvious fact is highlight the most obvious example of muddled thinking around here. The 'road to intolerance' might be not allowing people to express themselves naturally and not allowing society to properly confront and contradict bad belief systems. Like many on the left you seem fixed on this notion that the best thing to do is to force everyone to respect everything. It sounds like the road to hell to me. We cannot force anyone to think anything. But it is not unreasonable to call out those who justify hating those with different opinions, as being less than helpful to the cause of freedom of thought. Because generally, once a collection of people have decided to hate a certain group for their beliefs, they tend to want legal sanctions or other forms of suppression or persecution against them. We don't have to like what other people think. But once we start hating them as people for thinking it we are on the road to perdition. There will of course always be those such as yourself who will harbour hatred for those who dont agree with you. There seem to be more than a few of you on the right in particular. But for as long as you are not the norm - in spite of the best efforts of odious scum like Suella Braverman actively trying to whip up hate and racism - then freedom of thought, of conscience, of opinion, and of expression will continue to survive in this country. Your best efforts be damned. |
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Post by om15 on Nov 12, 2023 15:40:05 GMT
I think that might be one of the best sentiments expressed on this forum.
However you imply that it should be considered by us "racist far right" members rather than those on here who express jubilation at the actions of Hamas including the kidnapping and imprisonment of over 200 old people, women and children by disgusting terrorists.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:47:38 GMT
I should hate you? Of course not. You havent done me any harm. If we start hating people for their opinions we really will be in trouble... I agree with your sentiment, but that's the stock in trade of the left with people routinely being "No platformed" or branded "Far right" simply for challenging left wing narratives. Intolerance is not a monopoly of the right. It exists on the left too. As something of an old school lefty, I have always thought that the best answer to opinions I don't like is to let them be spoken freely and challenge them with a better argument. Rather than simply silence them. If they are wrong and we are right, we will soon make them look to be what they actually are and their own words will damn them far more effectively than their enforced silence ever will. But if they are right and we are wrong, our challenge to them will be found wanting, and their words and arguments will be strengthened by our challenge and it will be we on the left who will need a rethink. Unless it is obvious hate speech of a kind designed to whip up murder, violence and criminal disorder, I think everyone should have the right to speak. And if they are talking shite it will very quickly be made apparent by their challengers. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 15:49:16 GMT
I think that might be one of the best sentiments expressed on this forum. However you imply that it should be considered by us "racist far right" members rather than those on here who express jubilation at the actions of Hamas including the kidnapping and imprisonment of over 200 old people, women and children by disgusting terrorists. Who here has expressed jubilation at the actions of Hamas? Certainly not me. You are inventing stuff to pin on those who called out your racism. |
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