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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 12, 2023 15:49:20 GMT
I agree with your sentiment, but that's the stock in trade of the left with people routinely being "No platformed" or branded "Far right" simply for challenging left wing narratives. Intolerance is not a monopoly of the right. It exists on the left too. As something of an old school lefty, I have always thought that the best answer to opinions I don't like is to let them be spoken freely and challenge them with a better argument. Rather than simply silence them. If they are wrong and we are right, we will soon make them look to be what they actually are and their own words will damn them far more effectively than their enforced silence ever will. But if they are right and we are wrong, our challenge to them will be found wanting, and their words and arguments will be strengthened by our challenge and it will be we on the left who will need a rethink. Unless it is obvious hate speech of a kind designed to whip up murder, violence and criminal disorder, I think everyone should have the right to speak. And if they are talking shite it will very quickly be made apparent by their challengers. I agree. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 15:57:23 GMT
I think that might be one of the best sentiments expressed on this forum. However you imply that it should be considered by us "racist far right" members rather than those on here who express jubilation at the actions of Hamas including the kidnapping and imprisonment of over 200 old people, women and children by disgusting terrorists. Who here has expressed jubilation at the actions of Hamas? Certainly not me. You are inventing stuff to pin on those who called out your racism. There were 'demonstrations' immediately after Hamas made the snuff video. I believe some here signaled support for those demonstrations. What were they supporting in your view? I don't want to press this too hard because my view is these people are unthinking idiots, rather than actually supportive of torturing Jewish people to death. However, it is worth reflecting on what people are l ending their names to without thinking. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 12, 2023 16:00:28 GMT
Two completely different ideas which you have conflated. Just because people have the right to believe what they want, doesn't mean that you have to respect those beliefs or even like the people who hold them. Lazy thinking like this is causing a lot of problems Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. And there is a big difference between not respecting someone's beliefs and not respecting them for holding those beliefs. There is much in both the bible and koran that I have little respect for. That does not give me license to disrespect Christians and Muslims for believing differently to me, nor should it you. That people such as yourself tend to think it does is what is causing a lot of problems. Take politics for example. I disrespect most of the shite you come out with. Does that mean I should hate you? Of course not. You havent done me any harm. If we start hating people for their opinions we really will be in trouble, but too many on the right seem to seek to find justifications for doing exactly that. And you are one of them. What? We are already well down that road of people hating people for their beliefs or rather what they think their beliefs are. We only need to reference the BNP and the EDL and bingo fthe left is well into the realms of hating for belief as poor old Simone Clarke found out and once teh BNP membership list was published then the left were cock a hoop with their selective hatreds, intimidation and cancelling. You have to consider the differences, one can hate a belief, but that should not transfer to hating people of whom you believe hold that belief. But the left do, in spades. |
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Post by Pacifico on Nov 12, 2023 16:15:37 GMT
Speaking as a left winger, we are supportive of the notion of freedom of religion and thus reject hatred of people for their faith, which is what Islamophobia basically is. We also tend to be supportive of oppressed people everywhere, especially if our own establishment is supportive of the oppressors. This is why we tend to identify with the oppressed Palestinians. None of this makes us antisemites or supporters of the likes of Hamas. But I can see a thread designed for all the usual suspects to pile in and misrepresent us, so do carry on. I think this outlines why the political left are so passionate about the Palestinian cause compared to many others. Right or wrongly it’s portrayed as a powerful white nation oppressing a group of non white muslims that are powerless to resist.
And that ticks almost all the ‘lefts’ boxes. I’m not making any claim to the validity of that portrayal but I do see why emotions are so strong because of the perceived injustice.  |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 12, 2023 16:29:11 GMT
I think this outlines why the political left are so passionate about the Palestinian cause compared to many others. Right or wrongly it’s portrayed as a powerful white nation oppressing a group of non white muslims that are powerless to resist.
And that ticks almost all the ‘lefts’ boxes. I’m not making any claim to the validity of that portrayal but I do see why emotions are so strong because of the perceived injustice. Pure racism. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 12, 2023 16:43:06 GMT
I find it a bit peculiar that Islamophobia is so readily reconised but Israelophobia isn't. You are comparing apples and oranges and trying to posit a false equivalence. Because one is a religion. The other is a nation state led by a government. Two very different things. Criticism of any state is not an example of a phobia. If we are critical of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, does that make us Russophobic? If we are critical of Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, does that make us Iraqiphobic? You are essential trying to equate any criticism of Israel with bigotry, which is utter tosh frankly. 1. 2. 3. and 4. If the Jews were Muslims there would have been no resistance to their migration into Palestine. So IMO it is to a very large degree about religion. 5. 6. I know. So your following comments are not relative. 7. No I'm not. I recognise that there is a strong anti-Islam around, and ditto for the Jews / Israelis. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 12, 2023 16:55:47 GMT
There hasn't been an election in Gaza since 2006. Hamas are a Nazi dictatorship. They are a dictatorship yes. And terrorists clearly. And yes they hate the Jews of Israel. But it is intellectual laziness to call them Nazis. They are theocrats rather than racial supremacists. They are not believers in the superiority of the Aryans They are not obsessive haters of socialism, tending rather to reject all aspects of westernisation more generally. Ideologically they are extremists, but in very many ways obviously ideologically very different from the Nazis. The latter for example rather hated religion. Hamas is in part driven by it. They are national socialist theocratic scum. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 17:55:39 GMT
Who here has expressed jubilation at the actions of Hamas? Certainly not me. You are inventing stuff to pin on those who called out your racism. There were 'demonstrations' immediately after Hamas made the snuff video. I believe some here signaled support for those demonstrations. What were they supporting in your view? I don't want to press this too hard because my view is these people are unthinking idiots, rather than actually supportive of torturing Jewish people to death. However, it is worth reflecting on what people are l ending their names to without thinking. I have not heard of the video you are talking about but it would be typical of them. And in what way does supporting a ceasefire and speaking out for the Palestinians equate to automatic support for Hamas? Yes I have no doubt that extremist Hamas supporters were present. But what you are trying to do is equate all supporters of the Palestinians with Hamas, tarring them all with the same brush. Which again is how bigotry tends to be justified. And emotive examples tends to be par for the course. And for the record I condemn and abhor the Hamas murderers. But I am not going to do what you are doing and suggest that all the oppressed Palestinians are Hamas murderers. You clearly want to believe that all muslims are scum, but I will not join you in your malice. My loathing is reserved for those actually guilty of evil acts |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 18:01:08 GMT
They are a dictatorship yes. And terrorists clearly. And yes they hate the Jews of Israel. But it is intellectual laziness to call them Nazis. They are theocrats rather than racial supremacists. They are not believers in the superiority of the Aryans They are not obsessive haters of socialism, tending rather to reject all aspects of westernisation more generally. Ideologically they are extremists, but in very many ways obviously ideologically very different from the Nazis. The latter for example rather hated religion. Hamas is in part driven by it. They are national socialist theocratic scum. How national they are is open to debate. They are not noted for their socialism. Yes they are theocratic scum. And yes they may well be as evil as Nazis - some would say yes, some no - but they are not politically and ideological Nazis. It would be ideologically ignorant to say so. To so so would demonstrate a lack of understanding for what Nazism was and what Hamas is, and the huge ideological differences between them. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 18:04:19 GMT
Rubbish. If hating people for their beliefs becomes the accepted norm we are on the road to intolerance. And there is a big difference between not respecting someone's beliefs and not respecting them for holding those beliefs. There is much in both the bible and koran that I have little respect for. That does not give me license to disrespect Christians and Muslims for believing differently to me, nor should it you. That people such as yourself tend to think it does is what is causing a lot of problems. Take politics for example. I disrespect most of the shite you come out with. Does that mean I should hate you? Of course not. You havent done me any harm. If we start hating people for their opinions we really will be in trouble, but too many on the right seem to seek to find justifications for doing exactly that. And you are one of them. What? We are already well down that road of people hating people for their beliefs or rather what they think their beliefs are. We only need to reference the BNP and the EDL and bingo fthe left is well into the realms of hating for belief as poor old Simone Clarke found out and once teh BNP membership list was published then the left were cock a hoop with their selective hatreds, intimidation and cancelling. You have to consider the differences, one can hate a belief, but that should not transfer to hating people of whom you believe hold that belief. But the left do, in spades. Some elements of the left yes. But so do the right, also in spades, of which you yourself are an exemplar. |
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 18:05:06 GMT
There were 'demonstrations' immediately after Hamas made the snuff video. I believe some here signaled support for those demonstrations. What were they supporting in your view? I don't want to press this too hard because my view is these people are unthinking idiots, rather than actually supportive of torturing Jewish people to death. However, it is worth reflecting on what people are l ending their names to without thinking. I have not heard of the video you are talking about but it would be typical of them. And in what way does supporting a ceasefire.. I will rephrase for clarity. There were 'demonstrations' / celebrations? in cities (London etc) immediately after the news of Hamas's action. At this point Israel hadn't substantially acted. The snuff video Hamas made was shown publicly in Gaza btw |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2023 18:19:59 GMT
I have not heard of the video you are talking about but it would be typical of them. And in what way does supporting a ceasefire.. I will rephrase for clarity. There were 'demonstrations' / celebrations? in cities (London etc) immediately after the news of Hamas's action. At this point Israel hadn't substantially acted. The snuff video Hamas made was shown publicly in Gaza btw Well having done a google search for both "Gaza snuff video" and "Hamas snuff video" and drawn a blank, I will have to ask for a link to your source. Because atrocity stories wthat are untrue are as old as war itself. So if you are going to use this for emotive purposes, I will need your source. So that if you are going to insist upon using an emotive event in pursuit of an otherwise dubious cause as haters often do, we first both need to establish that the event actually happened. I am not yet saying that it didn't. They are more than capable of it. But if you are going to repeatedly cite something emotive in pursuit of your desire to spread your hate as widely as possible, first of all I need the event to be confirmed as true. I don't need to see any horrific video itself. But I need to see it reported in several reliable outlets. So links please. Either put up or shut up with the emotive crap. And incidentally, when Isis released that horrific video of a captured Jordanian pilot being burned alive a few years ago, it made me hate Isis even more than I already did. But it did not become an excuse for me to hate all Syrians, let alone all Muslims. And that tends to be where you and I differ. |
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Post by om15 on Nov 12, 2023 18:26:36 GMT
Could you support your statement by indicating evidence of my supposed "racism", or is that just a casual insult favoured by lefties when they have nothing intelligent to say. If you are unable to show that then I'm afraid you will look very silly. I don't intend to let that comment pass.
Give a cut and paste of my racism and not some assumption to suit your argument please.
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Post by Vinny on Nov 12, 2023 18:37:34 GMT
Hamas follow in the tradition of Amin Al Husseini. .
Amin Al Husseini was a friend of Adolf Hitler and a believer in National Socialist politics. What is more commonly termed Nazism.
In Germany Socialists were Sozialists or Sozis.
National Sozialists became known as Nazis.
Amin Al Husseini not only befriended the Nazis, he recruited for them and promoted their ideology in the Muslim world. An ideology which tainted the Army of the Holy War, and taints Hamas.
They are a Nazi party.
They are anti semitic genocidal filth.
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Post by Orac on Nov 12, 2023 18:48:00 GMT
I will rephrase for clarity. There were 'demonstrations' / celebrations? in cities (London etc) immediately after the news of Hamas's action. At this point Israel hadn't substantially acted. The snuff video Hamas made was shown publicly in Gaza btw So links please. Either put up or shut up with the emotive crap. I tried to move you back to the subject of my post, but it seems you don't want to move. Again - There were 'demonstrations' / celebrations? in cities (London etc) immediately after the news of Hamas's action. At this point Israel hadn't substantially acted. |
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