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Post by sheepy on Oct 14, 2023 8:36:26 GMT
So much flag waving going on, that is the thing with flag waving, somebody else is always waving a different one.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 9:43:43 GMT
Regarding the tongue in cheek depiction above of Eretz Israel in North America, it's worth noting that the state of Israel is smaller than New Jersey, one of the smaller states in the USA. Head further west and you come across states like Utah, ten times the size of Israel and very sparsely populated. Much of the state is owned by the federal BLM so there would be no difficulty with tenure or difficulties with neighbours should the US decide to cease paying the multi-billion dollars it sends in aid every year and gift an Israel-sized piece of Utah (say) instead. What's not to like. What's not to like? Forcible ethnic cleansing has never been a good thing. You'd never support that, would you, Dan? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 14, 2023 9:47:39 GMT
Regarding the tongue in cheek depiction above of Eretz Israel in North America, it's worth noting that the state of Israel is smaller than New Jersey, one of the smaller states in the USA. Head further west and you come across states like Utah, ten times the size of Israel and very sparsely populated. Much of the state is owned by the federal BLM so there would be no difficulty with tenure or difficulties with neighbours should the US decide to cease paying the multi-billion dollars it sends in aid every year and gift an Israel-sized piece of Utah (say) instead. What's not to like. What's not to like? Forcible ethnic cleansing has never been a good thing. You'd never support that, would you, Dan? It seems many do as that is exactly what Hamas indicate they wish to do. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2023 9:48:46 GMT
OK, taking your argument as read, is it rational to have the world permanently on the precipice of a nuclear war just so the Jews can inhabit their preferred piece of real estate? How many Muslim-Jewish wars have there been since the state of Israel was founded and is there any reason to believe there won't be more in the future? Your implication is that there is some sort of one world government with authority to tell nations what to do. Would this mythical authority tell N. Korea to rejoin with S. Korea to avoid a risk of (nuclear) war? Or perhaps they would just remove all nuclear weapons from the earth instead. Your totalitarian ideas are somewhat weird and even more repugnant. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 14, 2023 9:55:20 GMT
I'm simply searching for solutions to what appears to be an intractable dilemma. Ethnic cleansing, as you term it, has often been the preferred solution where particular ethnic or religious minorities are unable to get along with their neighbours. Especially in cases where there are antagonistic and deep-seated disagreements about who has the right of tenure to a particular piece of real estate.
But perhaps you have a better solution?
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Post by Orac on Oct 14, 2023 10:04:22 GMT
“Between two groups of people who want to make inconsistent kinds of worlds, I see no remedy but force.”
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Post by see2 on Oct 14, 2023 15:33:34 GMT
OK, taking your argument as read, is it rational to have the world permanently on the precipice of a nuclear war just so the Jews can inhabit their preferred piece of real estate? How many Muslim-Jewish wars have there been since the state of Israel was founded and is there any reason to believe there won't be more in the future? Then let the World and the Muslims and Arabs take the blame for the troubles and the aggression they started against the Jews/Israelis, that they have chosen and have continued to feed leading the Israelis to eventually vote for a Right-wing extremist governments in Israel. IMO, but for the unending hassle from Muslim terrorists the Israelis and the majority of Muslim Arabs could have managed to live in peace. They have been doing inside of Israel and they do when hundreds of Arab workers enter and leave Israel each week. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 14, 2023 19:46:42 GMT
Given that what we are currently witnessing is the just the latest expression of 75 years of mutual antagonism and hatred on the part of Palestinian Arabs and Jews what are the grounds for believing tomorrow will be better?
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 15, 2023 5:36:27 GMT
In early 1917 the war effort had reached a stalemate. Although the United States had declared war on Germany in April it was far from fully engaged - it would be late in the year before it even suffered a single casualty. The British government recognised the power of the Jewish lobby to influence US policy so it undertook to enlist the Jewish community for the Allied war effort.
To that end the Balfour Declaration was issued in November 1917, which read:
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
That notwithstanding, some two years earlier the Arabs then living in the area had been led to believe by representatives of the British government that, in return for launching a revolt against against the Ottoman Empire, they would be granted independence and political control over all former Ottoman possessions in the region, including Palestine.
Thus the 'twice-promised land'.
This is the root cause of all present problems in the region.
Yes. Here is a good insightful documentary on it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXfuqUhzESgBritain, France and Russia could not defeat Germany and her allies (Austria and Hungary) in Europe, so it sought to indirectly attack what it considered the soft underbelly of the Ottoman Empire from the Mid-East. To do this, it struck a deal with Arab leader Sharif Hussein to help the British fight the Ottoman Empire and help bring it to its knees, in return it would allow Arab nationalists the opportunity to be sovereign over their own affairs in the Middle-East. So, Britain agreed that the Arabs could have the land of Palestine for their efforts in fighting the Ottoman's. Then, the rest of your post comes into play here. Russia was crumbling with the Bolshevik revolution and against the Germans on the Eastern front, so Lloyd George (British PM) used the Jewish lobby in the US to aide support for the war in Europe. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 20, 2023 16:20:35 GMT
Given that what we are currently witnessing is the just the latest expression of 75 years of mutual antagonism and hatred on the part of Palestinian Arabs and Jews what are the grounds for believing tomorrow will be better? So the Palestinian Jews / Israelis must suffer just because the Palestinian Muslim Arabs want all of the land. After the years of wrongly being made the fall guys in many of the areas of the world where they have tried to set up home, is it any surprise at all that 1. They say enough is enough and they have decided to stand their ground in their ancestral home, and 2. Much of the rest of the world have failed to back them up, with so many falling for the 'poor-me' Arab false picture of just who is to blame for the violence. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 20, 2023 17:47:55 GMT
In early 1917 the war effort had reached a stalemate. Although the United States had declared war on Germany in April it was far from fully engaged - it would be late in the year before it even suffered a single casualty. The British government recognised the power of the Jewish lobby to influence US policy so it undertook to enlist the Jewish community for the Allied war effort.
To that end the Balfour Declaration was issued in November 1917, which read:
Foreign Office
November 2nd, 1917
Dear Lord Rothschild,
I have much pleasure in conveying to you. on behalf of His Majesty's Government, the following declaration of sympathy with Jewish Zionist aspirations which has been submitted to, and approved by, the Cabinet
His Majesty's Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.
I should be grateful if you would bring this declaration to the knowledge of the Zionist Federation.
Yours,
Arthur James Balfour
That notwithstanding, some two years earlier the Arabs then living in the area had been led to believe by representatives of the British government that, in return for launching a revolt against against the Ottoman Empire, they would be granted independence and political control over all former Ottoman possessions in the region, including Palestine.
Thus the 'twice-promised land'.
This is the root cause of all present problems in the region.
Yes. Here is a good insightful documentary on it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXfuqUhzESgBritain, France and Russia could not defeat Germany and her allies (Austria and Hungary) in Europe, so it sought to indirectly attack what it considered the soft underbelly of the Ottoman Empire from the Mid-East. To do this, it struck a deal with Arab leader Sharif Hussein to help the British fight the Ottoman Empire and help bring it to its knees, in return it would allow Arab nationalists the opportunity to be sovereign over their own affairs in the Middle-East. So, Britain agreed that the Arabs could have the land of Palestine for their efforts in fighting the Ottoman's. Then, the rest of your post comes into play here. Russia was crumbling with the Bolshevik revolution and against the Germans on the Eastern front, so Lloyd George (British PM) used the Jewish lobby in the US to aide support for the war in Europe. Show me written evidence in quotation marks that Palestine was promised to the Palestinian Arabs. YouTube is not a reliable source of history or anything else for that matter. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control so lets not make out that they were promised Palestine as a bribe for their efforts. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 20, 2023 20:06:34 GMT
Yes. Here is a good insightful documentary on it. www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXfuqUhzESgBritain, France and Russia could not defeat Germany and her allies (Austria and Hungary) in Europe, so it sought to indirectly attack what it considered the soft underbelly of the Ottoman Empire from the Mid-East. To do this, it struck a deal with Arab leader Sharif Hussein to help the British fight the Ottoman Empire and help bring it to its knees, in return it would allow Arab nationalists the opportunity to be sovereign over their own affairs in the Middle-East. So, Britain agreed that the Arabs could have the land of Palestine for their efforts in fighting the Ottoman's. Then, the rest of your post comes into play here. Russia was crumbling with the Bolshevik revolution and against the Germans on the Eastern front, so Lloyd George (British PM) used the Jewish lobby in the US to aide support for the war in Europe. Show me written evidence in quotation marks that Palestine was promised to the Palestinian Arabs. YouTube is not a reliable source of history or anything else for that matter. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control so lets not make out that they were promised Palestine as a bribe for their efforts. What right was it that allowed Britain and France to say Palestinian Arabs couldn't have land in their own region of the world? |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 20, 2023 21:17:41 GMT
Show me written evidence in quotation marks that Palestine was promised to the Palestinian Arabs. YouTube is not a reliable source of history or anything else for that matter. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control so lets not make out that they were promised Palestine as a bribe for their efforts. What right was it that allowed Britain and France to say Palestinian Arabs couldn't have land in their own region of the world? they were offered quite a bit of land  |
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Post by see2 on Oct 21, 2023 9:54:39 GMT
Show me written evidence in quotation marks that Palestine was promised to the Palestinian Arabs. YouTube is not a reliable source of history or anything else for that matter. The Arabs wanted freedom from Ottoman control so lets not make out that they were promised Palestine as a bribe for their efforts. What right was it that allowed Britain and France to say Palestinian Arabs couldn't have land in their own region of the world? No one said that. A two state solution was offered with Arabs living in peace inside Israel and Jews living in peace in the rest of Palestine. Who decided that Palestinian Jews could not have land in their own region of the world? |
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Post by see2 on Oct 21, 2023 9:57:45 GMT
What right was it that allowed Britain and France to say Palestinian Arabs couldn't have land in their own region of the world? they were offered quite a bit of land Plus the fact that around 50% of land offered to Israel was the Negev desert. |
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