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Post by see2 on Oct 21, 2023 10:16:01 GMT
Given that what we are currently witnessing is the just the latest expression of 75 years of mutual antagonism and hatred on the part of Palestinian Arabs and Jews what are the grounds for believing tomorrow will be better? The Israelis had no option but to live in antagonism, the Arabs were set on destroying Israel. As far as I'm aware there were Arab / Muslim families who had long standing claims to govern parts of the areas disbanded by the Ottomans, no such family claimed that right over Palestine. The fact that before the big improvements made by the British with some help from the Jews Palestine was a sparsely populated, sickly Malaria ridden, poor economically undesirable area of that part of the world. With vast areas of land unfit for cultivation. Prior to abandonment by the Ottomans the better areas of Palestine were owned by Ottomans and Greeks. |
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 21, 2023 10:23:59 GMT
This is the proviso of the Balfour agreement that the new Israel forgot.
i
"It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."
When after a week of legal recognition, it invaded Palestine and displaced nearly 700,000 Palestinian people.
Israel then went on to control the borders, forbid the importation of cement, forbade the construction of seaports and airports so stopping Palestinian trade and the construction of hospitals, interfered with the aquifers in Palestine, controlled the energy supply and built settlements on Palestinian lannd.
I would say the Balfour agreement was killed off in 1948.
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 21, 2023 10:43:00 GMT
This is the proviso of the Balfour agreement that the new Israel forgot. i "It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." When after a week of legal recognition, it invaded Palestine and displaced nearly 700,000 Palestinian people. Israel then went on to control the borders, forbid the importation of cement, forbade the construction of seaports and airports so stopping Palestinian trade and the construction of hospitals, interfered with the aquifers in Palestine, controlled the energy supply and built settlements on Palestinian lannd. I would say the Balfour agreement was killed off in 1948.It certainly was - the rejection of the UN Partition Plan by the Palestinians and the invasion of 3 Arab Armies the day after Israel declared independence saw to that. |
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 21, 2023 10:50:07 GMT
This is the proviso of the Balfour agreement that the new Israel forgot. i "It being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." When after a week of legal recognition, it invaded Palestine and displaced nearly 700,000 Palestinian people. Israel then went on to control the borders, forbid the importation of cement, forbade the construction of seaports and airports so stopping Palestinian trade and the construction of hospitals, interfered with the aquifers in Palestine, controlled the energy supply and built settlements on Palestinian lannd. I would say the Balfour agreement was killed off in 1948.It certainly was - the rejection of the UN Partition Plan by the Palestinians and the invasion of 3 Arab Armies the day after Israel declared independence saw to that. I thought you cared about democracy. If one party to a plan involving it and another party doesnt agree, does it not have a voice or is it not heard? Ben Gurion simply DECLARED INDEPENDENCE. I would call that ignoring the UN partition plan too. And he did it 24 hours before a vote was due to be had in the UN on its partition plan. So please no lectures on democracy or "olaying fair" or indeed the moral high ground. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 21, 2023 10:56:49 GMT
It certainly was - the rejection of the UN Partition Plan by the Palestinians and the invasion of 3 Arab Armies the day after Israel declared independence saw to that. I thought you cared about democracy. If one party to a plan involving it and another party doesnt agree, does it not have a voice or is it not heard? Ben Gurion simply DECLARED INDEPENDENCE. I would call that ignoring the UN partition plan too. And he did it 24 hours before a vote was due to be had in the UN on its partition plan.
So please no lectures on democracy or "olaying fair" or indeed the moral high ground. The Partition vote at the UN was on 29 November 1947 - Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948. So please, no lectures on history that you are unsure of. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 21, 2023 11:01:48 GMT
Given that what we are currently witnessing is the just the latest expression of 75 years of mutual antagonism and hatred on the part of Palestinian Arabs and Jews what are the grounds for believing tomorrow will be better? The Israelis had no option but to live in antagonism, the Arabs were set on destroying Israel. As far as I'm aware there were Arab / Muslim families who had long standing claims to govern parts of the areas disbanded by the Ottomans, no such family claimed that right over Palestine. The fact that before the big improvements made by the British with some help from the Jews Palestine was a sparsely populated, sickly Malaria ridden, poor economically undesirable area of that part of the world. With vast areas of land unfit for cultivation. Prior to abandonment by the Ottomans the better areas of Palestine were owned by Ottomans and Greeks. There seems to be a major lacuna in your knowledge of Palestinian history. I suggest you start to correct that by looking up the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence; the article on Wikipedia would be a good place to start.
The contradiction between the British commitments made therein and the Balfour Declaration is very obvious.
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 21, 2023 11:44:20 GMT
I thought you cared about democracy. If one party to a plan involving it and another party doesnt agree, does it not have a voice or is it not heard? Ben Gurion simply DECLARED INDEPENDENCE. I would call that ignoring the UN partition plan too. And he did it 24 hours before a vote was due to be had in the UN on its partition plan.
So please no lectures on democracy or "olaying fair" or indeed the moral high ground. The Partition vote at the UN was on 29 November 1947 - Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948. So please, no lectures on history that you are unsure of. " The announcement of the UN acceptance of partition was met in Arab Palestine by a general strike and demonstrations; some—in Jerusalem and elsewhere—turned to destructive riots. Meanwhile, emboldened by the international imprimatur given by the UN decision, the Zionist military organizations attacked Arab villages and residential quarters before launching the highly organized campaigns of Plan Dalet starting in early April 1948. Villagers together with the more organized Arab volunteer and irregular forces defended their territory and attacked Zionist areas. This “civil war” phase of the 1947–49 Palestine war ended with Israel's declaration of statehood on 15 May 1948." www.palquest.org/en/highlight/159/un-partition-plan-1947#:~:text=Palestine%20partition%20plan%20proposed%20by,Committee%20on%20the%20Palestine%20Question.&text=On%2029%20November%201947%2C%20the,zone%20encompassing%20Jerusalem%20and%20Bethlehem). It might be of interest to you to know that it takes time after a vote for the propodal to be put into law. Especially when it is contested. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 21, 2023 14:19:38 GMT
The Israelis had no option but to live in antagonism, the Arabs were set on destroying Israel. As far as I'm aware there were Arab / Muslim families who had long standing claims to govern parts of the areas disbanded by the Ottomans, no such family claimed that right over Palestine. The fact that before the big improvements made by the British with some help from the Jews Palestine was a sparsely populated, sickly Malaria ridden, poor economically undesirable area of that part of the world. With vast areas of land unfit for cultivation. Prior to abandonment by the Ottomans the better areas of Palestine were owned by Ottomans and Greeks. There seems to be a major lacuna in your knowledge of Palestinian history. I suggest you start to correct that by looking up the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence; the article on Wikipedia would be a good place to start.
The contradiction between the British commitments made therein and the Balfour Declaration is very obvious.
I don't have time to start searching again, if there are unequivocal comments to prove a point please copy and paste the relevant bits with dates. I'm not that keen on interpreting comments that could be taken in more ways than one. Or at least post the web address of the article you are referring to. |
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Post by see2 on Oct 21, 2023 14:45:30 GMT
The Partition vote at the UN was on 29 November 1947 - Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948. So please, no lectures on history that you are unsure of. " The announcement of the UN acceptance of partition was met in Arab Palestine by a general strike and demonstrations; some—in Jerusalem and elsewhere—turned to destructive riots. Meanwhile, emboldened by the international imprimatur given by the UN decision, the Zionist military organizations attacked Arab villages and residential quarters before launching the highly organized campaigns of Plan Dalet starting in early April 1948. Villagers together with the more organized Arab volunteer and irregular forces defended their territory and attacked Zionist areas. This “civil war” phase of the 1947–49 Palestine war ended with Israel's declaration of statehood on 15 May 1948." www.palquest.org/en/highlight/159/un-partition-plan-1947#:~:text=Palestine%20partition%20plan%20proposed%20by,Committee%20on%20the%20Palestine%20Question.&text=On%2029%20November%201947%2C%20the,zone%20encompassing%20Jerusalem%20and%20Bethlehem). It might be of interest to you to know that it takes time after a vote for the propodal to be put into law. Especially when it is contested. The Palestinian Arabs made it perfectly clear in 1947 that they would destroy an Israeli state if it came into being. That threat was taken up by 5 Muslim armies all intent on annihilating Israel. The conflict between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs was instigated by the Palestinian Arabs. The threat of war was there before the declaration of independence by the Jews, the Palestinian Jews knew that the only way to get their homeland back was to declare independence. They Knew there were five Muslim armies waiting for them. Their first job was to take out the enclaves of anti Israeli fighters before they took on the Muslim armies otherwise they would be fighting the Muslim armies in front and anti Israeli fighters from behind them. The Palestinian Arabs were advised by the Muslim armies to move out of the way of their invasion, promising them that they would be able to soon return after Israel had be annihilated. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 21, 2023 15:43:04 GMT
The Israelis had no option but to live in antagonism, the Arabs were set on destroying Israel. As far as I'm aware there were Arab / Muslim families who had long standing claims to govern parts of the areas disbanded by the Ottomans, no such family claimed that right over Palestine. The fact that before the big improvements made by the British with some help from the Jews Palestine was a sparsely populated, sickly Malaria ridden, poor economically undesirable area of that part of the world. With vast areas of land unfit for cultivation. Prior to abandonment by the Ottomans the better areas of Palestine were owned by Ottomans and Greeks. There seems to be a major lacuna in your knowledge of Palestinian history. I suggest you start to correct that by looking up the McMahon-Hussein Correspondence; the article on Wikipedia would be a good place to start.
The contradiction between the British commitments made therein and the Balfour Declaration is very obvious.
After digging around a bit it seem the McMahon-Hussein correspondence was just that, and not a treaty. According to Britannica: In July 1915 Hussein took the opportunity to send a letter to McMahon detailing the conditions under which he would consider a partnership with the British. Hussein, who claimed to represent all Arabs, effectively sought independence for the entirety of the Arabic-speaking lands to the east of Egypt. McMahon, however, insisted that certain areas falling within the French sphere of influence, such as the districts of Mersina and Alexandretta and land lying west of Damascus (Homs, Hama, and Aleppo—i.e., modern Lebanon), would not be included and emphasized that British interests in Baghdad and Basra would require special consideration. Hussein disagreed with the exception of the French-claimed areas and stipulated that certain rules had to govern British activity in Baghdad and Basra, terms to which McMahon did not give his assent. In the end, the matters were set aside for discussion at a later date. Ultimately, the highly ambiguous correspondence was in no way a formal treaty, and disagreements on several points persisted unresolved. ...The Hussein-McMahon correspondence remained a point of heated contention thereafter, particularly as it related to Palestine, which the British claimed was included in the land to be set aside for the French. Although it is uncertain precisely what Hussein expected or even what exactly McMahon had offered, it is certain that the Arabs achieved far less from the ambiguous arrangement than they had anticipated. www.britannica.com/topic/Husayn-McMahon-correspondence |
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 21, 2023 16:56:54 GMT
" The announcement of the UN acceptance of partition was met in Arab Palestine by a general strike and demonstrations; some—in Jerusalem and elsewhere—turned to destructive riots. Meanwhile, emboldened by the international imprimatur given by the UN decision, the Zionist military organizations attacked Arab villages and residential quarters before launching the highly organized campaigns of Plan Dalet starting in early April 1948. Villagers together with the more organized Arab volunteer and irregular forces defended their territory and attacked Zionist areas. This “civil war” phase of the 1947–49 Palestine war ended with Israel's declaration of statehood on 15 May 1948." www.palquest.org/en/highlight/159/un-partition-plan-1947#:~:text=Palestine%20partition%20plan%20proposed%20by,Committee%20on%20the%20Palestine%20Question.&text=On%2029%20November%201947%2C%20the,zone%20encompassing%20Jerusalem%20and%20Bethlehem). It might be of interest to you to know that it takes time after a vote for the propodal to be put into law. Especially when it is contested. The Palestinian Arabs made it perfectly clear in 1947 that they would destroy an Israeli state if it came into being. That threat was taken up by 5 Muslim armies all intent on annihilating Israel. The conflict between the Palestinian Jews and the Palestinian Arabs was instigated by the Palestinian Arabs. The threat of war was there before the declaration of independence by the Jews, the Palestinian Jews knew that the only way to get their homeland back was to declare independence. They Knew there were five Muslim armies waiting for them. Their first job was to take out the enclaves of anti Israeli fighters before they took on the Muslim armies otherwise they would be fighting the Muslim armies in front and anti Israeli fighters from behind them. The Palestinian Arabs were advised by the Muslim armies to move out of the way of their invasion, promising them that they would be able to soon return after Israel had be annihilated. Of course the Palestinians objected to having half their properties/land stolen, and to add insult to injury, israel encouraging and paying for plonking great cement apartment blocks where their fields used to be, blocking their access to the sea/trade, and being thrown out of the East Jerusalem granted to them by the UN not so long ago. Would you put up with being occupied by the nazis? |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 21, 2023 16:57:04 GMT
The Partition vote at the UN was on 29 November 1947 - Israel declared independence on 14 May 1948. So please, no lectures on history that you are unsure of. " The announcement of the UN acceptance of partition was met in Arab Palestine by a general strike and demonstrations; some—in Jerusalem and elsewhere—turned to destructive riots. Meanwhile, emboldened by the international imprimatur given by the UN decision, the Zionist military organizations attacked Arab villages and residential quarters before launching the highly organized campaigns of Plan Dalet starting in early April 1948. Villagers together with the more organized Arab volunteer and irregular forces defended their territory and attacked Zionist areas. This “civil war” phase of the 1947–49 Palestine war ended with Israel's declaration of statehood on 15 May 1948." www.palquest.org/en/highlight/159/un-partition-plan-1947#:~:text=Palestine%20partition%20plan%20proposed%20by,Committee%20on%20the%20Palestine%20Question.&text=On%2029%20November%201947%2C%20the,zone%20encompassing%20Jerusalem%20and%20Bethlehem). It might be of interest to you to know that it takes time after a vote for the propodal to be put into law. Especially when it is contested. Well its not news that the Palestinians and surrounding Arab States rejected the UN decision - but that decision was made. The reason that Israel declared statehood was that the following day the British Mandate ended - they were complying with the decision of the UN about what to do when the British pulled out. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 21, 2023 20:42:37 GMT
Did the Jews accept the partition plan either? It appears not: The American-Israeli historian Martin Kramer writes that “The Peoples Administration — the proto-cabinet of the Israeli government-to-be, headed by David Ben Gurion — voted on May 12, 1948, i.e. two days before the proclamation of the State of Israel, not to officially recognize the borders in the 1947 UN partition plan as definitive. In other words, the Zionist leadership decided that Israel would not have fixed borders, that its borders would be whatever territory it could conquer and subsequently annex."
This would seem obvious in view of Israel’s behaviour over the past seventy years but, as Kramer documents, the reason it is so is because it was explicitly debated and decided in a formal vote by the Zionist leadership. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 21, 2023 21:25:18 GMT
Did the Jews accept the partition plan either? It appears not:
The American-Israeli historian Martin Kramer writes that “The Peoples Administration — the proto-cabinet of the Israeli government-to-be, headed by David Ben Gurion — voted on May 12, 1948, i.e. two days before the proclamation of the State of Israel, not to officially recognize the borders in the 1947 UN partition plan as definitive. In other words, the Zionist leadership decided that Israel would not have fixed borders, that its borders would be whatever territory it could conquer and subsequently annex."
This would seem obvious in view of Israel’s behaviour over the past seventy years but, as Kramer documents, the reason it is so is because it was explicitly debated and decided in a formal vote by the Zionist leadership. Context dear boy.. |
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Post by oracle75 on Oct 22, 2023 9:37:40 GMT
The context was post WW2 and huge sympathy for the Jewish diaspora.
The UN could vote but it was the proto Israel government that had to accept it.
I have mentioned before that the Dec of Isreali Independence deliberately avoided defining borders.
Israel also launched the Nakba before the UN could declare Palestine as a recognised state with borders. That would have made the Israeli invasion internationally illegal, and Israel needed international support, given it was surrounded by Arab states.
Israel has accumulated more criticism by the UN than any other country, for example building settlements on Palestinian land, but ignores them because any serious sanction has to be approved by the Security Council and the USA will always veto such a sanction.
Why? Because of the large Jewish vote in the USA. No American politician will criticise Israel for fear of that word, anti-semitism. A career ending word.
So Israel can ignore the UN and do whatever it wants. And what it wants is the total absorbtion of Palestine which they consider as part of what Jehovah promised...the promised land.
If Hamas had more intelligence it would not have initiated the violence. IMO it has given the kiss of death to any idea of a two state reality. All sympathy and military strength is now with Israel.
Palestinian people need a homeland and to be protected by official statehood. It is the only solution.
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