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Post by Steve on Aug 29, 2023 16:40:34 GMT
They arent fleeing Islam. I disagree. People will identify various reasons; poverty, chaos, oppression etc; but Islam is root cause of many of these maladies - ie why the area is such a monumental disaster zone and so full of oppression. I suggest it's more religious/political extremism although fundamentalist/extreme Islamic cultures are probably the worst example. The Rohingya fleeing extreme Buddhism and the Chinese oppressing Uyghurs are islamophobic examples the other way. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 29, 2023 16:42:57 GMT
They arent fleeing Islam. I disagree. People will identify various reasons; poverty, chaos, oppression etc; but Islam is root cause of many of these maladies - ie why the area is such a monumental disaster zone and so full of oppression. The recent wars are the cause. The west thought they could modernise the countries...the arab spring. Change extremist Islamic culture. Before the war people werent fleeing. The phenomenon of the migrants didnt exist 25 years ago. Most migration was in the Far East after VietNam. People dont flee their culture. They flee those who use the culture to oppress them. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 29, 2023 16:52:32 GMT
I disagree. People will identify various reasons; poverty, chaos, oppression etc; but Islam is root cause of many of these maladies - ie why the area is such a monumental disaster zone and so full of oppression. The recent wars are the cause. That's a proximate cause. The underlying cause of the chaos and most of poverty is Islamic culture and its war upon reality. If the middle east were dominated by something a bit more like Christianity or Buddhism, It wouldn't be in half this pickle. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 29, 2023 17:08:28 GMT
The recent wars are the cause. That's a proximate cause. The underlying cause of the chaos and most of poverty is Islamic culture and its war upon reality. If the middle east were dominated by something a bit more like Christianity or Buddhism, It wouldn't be in half this pickle. The recent cause of wars was the west's efforts to "bend" Muslims to more of a christian mode. There were no Muslim terrorists in the west before 5he Arab Spring. The west thought it was obvious that Muslims wanted to lean towards the west and that they needed a bit of help. They didnt count on Putin using Syria as target practice to develop new weapons. But the west did see that Russian dominated Syria is one giant step towards Europe. And still is. None of the Muslim countries involved in western shitstirring, particularly along the north africa coast, became more western in culture. Libya is still a political vacuum, as is Egypt. Algeria has commpicated problems. When it was all shaken down, the western arab spring created nothing but more extremist or unstable governments which had been OK before. And it created millions of displaced migrants who had hoped for a western liberal accent to their Islam. They lost. But i cant blame them fleeing the winners. It all began with Blair's Iraq and ended only when the west realiszd it was a huge mistake to try to change a country by war. We only made a huge problem for ourselves. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 29, 2023 17:13:36 GMT
That's a proximate cause. The underlying cause of the chaos and most of poverty is Islamic culture and its war upon reality. If the middle east were dominated by something a bit more like Christianity or Buddhism, It wouldn't be in half this pickle. The recent cause of wars was the west's efforts to "bend" Muslims to more of a christian mode. There were no Muslim terrorists in the west before 5he Arab Spring. Islamic terorists carried out the 1985/86 Paris Attacks and the 1995 Paris and Lyon Bombings. They also carried out the 9/11 attacks 10 years before the Arab Spring. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 29, 2023 17:16:52 GMT
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Post by Orac on Aug 29, 2023 17:23:31 GMT
That's a proximate cause. The underlying cause of the chaos and most of poverty is Islamic culture and its war upon reality. If the middle east were dominated by something a bit more like Christianity or Buddhism, It wouldn't be in half this pickle. There were no Muslim terrorists in the west before 5he Arab Spring. The Arab spring was nearly a decade after 911. There were fewer Muslim terrorists in the west in the past, largely because there were far, far fewer Muslims. The cultural antagonism itself has been pretty constant and has a very long history. However, i'm not really talking about terrorism - my focus is the parlous state of the region. |
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Post by sheepy on Aug 29, 2023 19:53:28 GMT
Eh? didn't I say they had changed the rules, which you somehow turned into being about the French revolution, nothing stranger than folk. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 30, 2023 10:50:31 GMT
There were no Muslim terrorists in the west before 5he Arab Spring. The Arab spring was nearly a decade after 911. There were fewer Muslim terrorists in the west in the past, largely because there were far, far fewer Muslims. The cultural antagonism itself has been pretty constant and has a very long history. However, i'm not really talking about terrorism - my focus is the parlous state of the region. Unfortunately you cant separate the state of the region from those who control it. Islam is the faith most actively practised in the world. Consider Africa,the Middle East and Indonesia. Most are getting in quietly enough. The issues are coming from those countries the west has interfered in. |
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Post by Orac on Aug 30, 2023 15:44:00 GMT
The Arab spring was nearly a decade after 911. There were fewer Muslim terrorists in the west in the past, largely because there were far, far fewer Muslims. The cultural antagonism itself has been pretty constant and has a very long history. However, i'm not really talking about terrorism - my focus is the parlous state of the region. Unfortunately you cant separate the state of the region from those who control it. I didn't do that. If the middle east were not so strongly influenced by Islam it wouldn't be such a dire, hopeless hole. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Aug 30, 2023 17:19:48 GMT
Unfortunately you cant separate the state of the region from those who control it. I didn't do that. If the middle east were not so strongly influenced by Islam it wouldn't be such a dire, hopeless hole. That's a really lazy thought. Some parts of the middle east are incredibly wealthy, in the same way that some parts of Europe are relatively poor. Places like Singapore and Malaysia are also Islamic but far from hell holes. Methinks that you need to rethink your idea of a link between prosperity and religion, as it doesn't seem to exist. Have a look at how the Saudi football league is trying to take on the European leagues... |
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Post by Orac on Aug 30, 2023 17:29:31 GMT
I didn't do that. If the middle east were not so strongly influenced by Islam it wouldn't be such a dire, hopeless hole. That's a really lazy thought. Some parts of the middle east are incredibly wealthy, in the same way that some parts of Europe are relatively poor. Places like Singapore and Malaysia are also Islamic but far from hell holes. Methinks that you need to rethink your idea of a link between prosperity and religion, as it doesn't seem to exist. Have a look at how the Saudi football league is trying to take on the European leagues... Yes - some places in the middle east are very wealthy; the places that sit directly on some of most valuable and easily accessed natural resources on the planet. However, even these places are still oppressive hell holes. It takes some doing to turn 'sitting pretty' into a total dystopia with no prospects beyond that windfall, but somehow these clowns still manage it. You aren't parsing what i'm saying very clearly. The entire middle east would be far better situated if it had avoided Islam and gone a different route. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 30, 2023 22:30:54 GMT
You have no idea what Islamic countties would be like.
The christian countries have a history of brutal warfare, intetcommunal torture prompted by belief in witchcraft, years of enslaving people and forced conversions of those who were not christian, theft of entire territories and indigenous peoples in the name of christ.
I would think any faith BUT christianity would have suited them better.
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