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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 9, 2023 8:32:47 GMT
LOL indeed, replace 'progressive' with Champagne Socialist. With educated and informed personnel, the escape route from typical Tory insinuation and denigration as shown in your post. LOL excellent. Load of bollox but at least it made me laugh.
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Post by zanygame on Jul 9, 2023 8:35:27 GMT
With educated and informed personnel, the escape route from typical Tory insinuation and denigration as shown in your post. LOL excellent. Load of bollox but at least it made me laugh. So, what is a champagne socialist Red? And why is it an insult.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 9, 2023 9:18:09 GMT
LOL excellent. Load of bollox but at least it made me laugh. So, what is a champagne socialist Red? And why is it an insult. A champagne socialist is typically a left wing social justice warrior who complains about wealth or the wealthy while being a multi millionaire themselves. See Keir Starmer.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2023 10:23:25 GMT
So my first question would be - why would Tony Blair want to stop them ?, bearing in mind that under the terms of the treaty, he could only delay their arrival. Other EU countries did not stop these migrants from coming because they could not do that, they implemented the transitional period.
which the Blair government has already admitted that it was a mistake not to do the same - instead of the vast numbers of migrants being shared around the EU (as they should have been) they all pitched up in the UK Mass immigration was yet another disaster from the Blair administration. At the time, different countries applied different transitional rules allowed under the terms of the agreement, 7 nations including the UK applied no transition period, most countries applied a transition period of two years, and no countries applied the full 7 year period allowed under rule, only France applied a 5 year transition period. The MAXIMUM period of transitional rights is 5 Years, which can be extended to a further 2 years if there is firm evidence or proof that the arrival of migrant workers has significantly disrupted the labour market. In the case of the UK this was not the case, therefore the maximum transition that Blair could have imposed was just 5 years. So all the European workers did not all come here in 2004, they spread out over different nations, and other than in a small pocket of Eastern England, they posed no problems and were beneficial to our economy and growth. But the key point here is that Tory Apologists are attempting ( but failing ) to convince posters that Freedom Of Movement was all the fault of a Labour government, when it was not. Secondly, you are attempting to suggest that Blair could have stopped Freedom Of Movement, which he could not, and the only brake which the government could have put on, was to delay by 5 years, something that just one other EU state applied.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 9, 2023 10:28:28 GMT
So why have Labour admitted their decision was a mistake if it was all the fault of the Tories as you claim?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2023 11:06:54 GMT
I think that SOME individuals have suggested it was perhaps the wrong decision in hindsight, but the Labour Party has never officialy suggested that it was wrong.
I mean, would those individuals who believe that Blair ought have imposed a transitional period, would also agree that John Major should never have agreed to Freedom Of Movement ?
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 9, 2023 11:15:45 GMT
LOL excellent. Load of bollox but at least it made me laugh. So, what is a champagne socialist Red? And why is it an insult. An archetype would be the crooner Billy Bragg who campaigned against the BNP which opposed Labour's plan to displace white voters from Barking and Dagenham and who then, having won the battle, retired to his multi-million seaside mansion in Dorset.
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Post by see2 on Jul 9, 2023 15:19:53 GMT
With educated and informed personnel, the escape route from typical Tory insinuation and denigration as shown in your post. LOL excellent. Load of bollox but at least it made me laugh. No change there then
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Post by see2 on Jul 9, 2023 15:26:05 GMT
So, what is a champagne socialist Red? And why is it an insult. An archetype would be the crooner Billy Bragg who campaigned against the BNP which opposed Labour's plan to displace white voters from Barking and Dagenham and who then, having won the battle, retired to his multi-million seaside mansion in Dorset.
So that's your version of a typical champagne socialist, well, IMO your post is more an example of the stunted thinking of the typical right-winger and the typical anti Labour party antagonist.
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Post by see2 on Jul 9, 2023 15:36:14 GMT
So why have Labour admitted their decision was a mistake if it was all the fault of the Tories as you claim? It was a mistake for two reasons. 1. The massive opportunity it gave to that producer of pure garbage, the Tory propaganda machine. 2. It was also a mistake in terms of the unexpected serious economic problems that lay ahead. As victims of IFM, the garbage yet powerful Tory propaganda machine for which Labour had no answer, it became politically beneficial to cross it off as a mistake.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 9, 2023 17:05:24 GMT
I think that SOME individuals have suggested it was perhaps the wrong decision in hindsight, but the Labour Party has never officialy suggested that it was wrong. I mean, would those individuals who believe that Blair ought have imposed a transitional period, would also agree that John Major should never have agreed to Freedom Of Movement ? If you talking about all the other member states of the EU who did impose a transitional period to protect their citizens - then I expect they are quite happy with FoM. Ironically enough, if Blair had not thrown open the floodgates in 2004, Labour could easily have won in 2010 - then we would have had no Brexit referendum and probably still be in the EU. It's a funny old world..
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2023 17:30:30 GMT
Prior to David Cameron promising a referendum on EU membership, the issue of EU membership WAS NOT high on the agenda of issues which concerned the electorate, and neither was EU migrant workers.
Cameron promised an EU referendum, not to please the electorate, but in an attempt to put a halt to the civil war in the Conservative Party.
The burning issues of the day as far as the 2010 general election was concerned were The Economy, Recession and recovery, the aftermath of The Financial Crisis, Jobs, the deficit and how to deal with it.
There was a perception, partly peddled by the Conservatives, that the WORLD WIDE financial crisis, and the WORLD WIDE recession was somehow all Gordon Browns fault, one of the three biggest political lies of the 21st century, along with the £350 Million for the NHS and Labours VAT Bombshell.
Enough voters believed the lies which the Tories peddled, and it allowed the Tories to scrape to power with a lot of help from The Lib Dems.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 9, 2023 17:46:47 GMT
LOL - dear old Sid still trying to rewrite history.... When New Labour came to power in 1997, just 3% of the public cited immigration as a key issue. By the time of the EU referendum in 2016, that figure was 48%.
By the time Brown took his ill-fated walkabout in 2010, immigration was already polling as a top concern, overtaking the NHS and only topped by the economy for a few years following the 2008 crash. By then, politicians and the media had shaped a venomous narrative around the volume of new arrivals to the UK, the identity of those coming and why they did so.
Labour opened the borders to migrants from eastern Europe’s A8 countries: the Czech republic, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Poland, Slovakia and Slovenia. To this day, this is cast as a supposed mistake, with former and current Labour MPs lining up to apologise for it. In 2012, Labour leader Ed Miliband said immigration was “one of the areas we got wrong” and spoke of “local talent” being “locked out of opportunity”. And in 2013, Straw, the former home secretary, described it as a “spectacular mistake”.
How immigration became Britain’s most toxic political issue
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 9, 2023 20:21:45 GMT
The last Labour government was in power for over ten years ( 1997 - 2007 ) running the country without excessive borrowing. It was a double whammy which caused not only Gordon Brown, but many leaders to turn to borrowing to prop up banks, support the economy, and protect businesses and people from the worst effects of both the financial crisis and the recession that followed. IF Labour win the next election, things are going to be tight financialy, but the priorities will be very different. Conservatives by their very nature are not interventionists, they believe more in The Free Market and Market Forces, but Keir Starmer is determined to influence economic growth, one of his pledges is to create the conditions to make growth in the UK the highest in the G7. Economic growth = increasing wealth, increasing revenue to the treasury There is a cheap way and a difficult way to achieve growth. The difficult way is scientific progress which feeds into technology and engineering. The cheap way is to do a Liz Truss and borrow to pay for government spending.
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Post by zanygame on Jul 10, 2023 17:50:34 GMT
The last Labour government was in power for over ten years ( 1997 - 2007 ) running the country without excessive borrowing. It was a double whammy which caused not only Gordon Brown, but many leaders to turn to borrowing to prop up banks, support the economy, and protect businesses and people from the worst effects of both the financial crisis and the recession that followed. IF Labour win the next election, things are going to be tight financialy, but the priorities will be very different. Conservatives by their very nature are not interventionists, they believe more in The Free Market and Market Forces, but Keir Starmer is determined to influence economic growth, one of his pledges is to create the conditions to make growth in the UK the highest in the G7. Economic growth = increasing wealth, increasing revenue to the treasury There is a cheap way and a difficult way to achieve growth. The difficult way is scientific progress which feeds into technology and engineering. The cheap way is to do a Liz Truss and borrow to pay for government spending. But Liz truss wasn't trying to achieve growth. She just wanted to move what little money there is left into the pockets of those that already have most of it.
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