|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Jul 8, 2023 13:46:07 GMT
Does the archive also detail the appalling atrocities Mau-Mau terrorists inflicted not only upon white settlers but also Kikuyu tribespeople as well?
Perhaps this topic merits its own thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 13:51:26 GMT
Does the archive also detail the appalling atrocities Mau-Mau terrorists inflicted not only upon white settlers but also Kikuyu tribespeople as well? Two wrongs dont make a right. Monte is claiming the british had such remorse for what they did in south africa they never again commited evil ,and became a world force for good. Im just helpfully showing him that isnt true.
We also know they set up internment camps in ireland decades before and after this as well , and the european court of human rights in my lifetime fined the british government for torture , inhuman and degrading treatment in northern ireland and they then were forced to pay out millions in compensation.
|
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on Jul 8, 2023 13:53:07 GMT
Britain did not invent the concentration camp. Aside from the fact that detaining your enemy has been a part of war since wars began, the first modern concentration camps utilising the new innovations of barbed wire and machine guns were used by the Spanish in Cuba (resulting in some 150,000 deaths) some 5 years before they were used in South Africa. Germany itself had camps in Namibia where more died than in the Boer War camps and the Germans had an active policy of killing all Bushmen armed or not. Deliberate genocide. The big difference though is that the British public was so appalled by the deaths of civilians (well the white ones anyway, they were not so bothered about blacks dying in the camps) that Britain never used them again. Germany had no such qualms. again monte we are dancing on the head of a pin here. Wether the british were just pipped to the line by the spanish in the race to invent the concetration camp matters not a jot. The british still enthusiastically used them , and killed tens of thousands ruthlessley in them.
No ? When the british starved 4 million irish to death , and forced them to migrate off their lands much to worldwide condemnation , im not sure the british public were any less uncaring than the german a century later.
We seem to have went from comparing unspeakable acts of evil , to a race to see who invented what first ,what the purpose of killing was for , and who showed the most remorse rather than the condemnation of an unspeakable act of evil no matter who or what perpetrated it.
That isnt true. They were using the same camps and commiteing the same atrocities in kenya during the mau mau rebellion 60 years later.
In a new documentary released last month in the UK, Kenyan and British historians describe how Britain secretly used torture against prisoners in Mau Mau detention camps during the anti-colonial uprising movement in the 1950s. One of the Kenyans featured is historian and digital heritage scholar Chao Tayiana, the founder of the African Digital Heritage Project (ADHP), an organization focusing on the use of technology in preserving and sharing African heritage.
“It really flipped the script as to who is uncivilized,” Tayiana says in the film, which reveals details from a secret archive known as the “Hanslope Disclosure” that remained hidden from public view for over 50 years. The archive contained damning evidence on Britain’s use of torture including murder, rape, and forced castrations against Mau Mau prisoners. Surviving veterans of this period are also featured in the film, and describe the appalling conditions they endured in detention.
Now you are conflating concentration camps with prisoner of war camps. A better example would have been the forced resettlement of whole villages during the Malayan Emergency in the '50s except the villagers were not mistreated and didn't die in large numbers. The policy was so effective at denying resources to the Chinese backed insurgents hiding in the jungle that it lead to them surrendering when their food ran out since they could no longer raid villages for supplies. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 13:55:23 GMT
I think sir edward comptons report on killings british brutality and torture in northern ireland in the seventies is relevant to this thread.
."the british could not deny the facts , so played semantics with the words killing , torture and brutality".
You see that through this thread.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 13:56:56 GMT
again monte we are dancing on the head of a pin here. Wether the british were just pipped to the line by the spanish in the race to invent the concetration camp matters not a jot. The british still enthusiastically used them , and killed tens of thousands ruthlessley in them.
No ? When the british starved 4 million irish to death , and forced them to migrate off their lands much to worldwide condemnation , im not sure the british public were any less uncaring than the german a century later.
We seem to have went from comparing unspeakable acts of evil , to a race to see who invented what first ,what the purpose of killing was for , and who showed the most remorse rather than the condemnation of an unspeakable act of evil no matter who or what perpetrated it.
That isnt true. They were using the same camps and commiteing the same atrocities in kenya during the mau mau rebellion 60 years later.
In a new documentary released last month in the UK, Kenyan and British historians describe how Britain secretly used torture against prisoners in Mau Mau detention camps during the anti-colonial uprising movement in the 1950s. One of the Kenyans featured is historian and digital heritage scholar Chao Tayiana, the founder of the African Digital Heritage Project (ADHP), an organization focusing on the use of technology in preserving and sharing African heritage.
“It really flipped the script as to who is uncivilized,” Tayiana says in the film, which reveals details from a secret archive known as the “Hanslope Disclosure” that remained hidden from public view for over 50 years. The archive contained damning evidence on Britain’s use of torture including murder, rape, and forced castrations against Mau Mau prisoners. Surviving veterans of this period are also featured in the film, and describe the appalling conditions they endured in detention.
Now you are conflating concentration camps with prisoner of war camps. i thought you would say that. wether concentration camp , internment camp or detention camp , call them what you will. The unspeakable acts of evil perpetrated in them arent washed out by changing the name monte.
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan Dare on Jul 8, 2023 14:01:28 GMT
This is straying very far from the topic under discussion.
If you wish to discuss the sins of the British Empire, why not start a separate thread. Perhaps Monte or some other management bod can re-locate associated posts over there.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:01:46 GMT
again monte we are dancing on the head of a pin here. Wether the british were just pipped to the line by the spanish in the race to invent the concetration camp matters not a jot. The british still enthusiastically used them , and killed tens of thousands ruthlessley in them. A better example would have been the forced resettlement of whole villages during the Malayan Emergency in the '50s except the villagers were not mistreated and didn't die in large numbers. The policy was so effective at denying resources to the Chinese backed insurgents hiding in the jungle that it lead to them surrendering when their food ran out since they could no longer raid villages for supplies. You know monte , i really cany understand why the world has such a poor view of the british. Im sure its all just one big misunderstanding , and that the british really were a decent bunch of chaps who behaved rather well in the face of adversity.
Apologising for kiiling unarmed civilians , torturing people and being forced to pay millions in compensation , starving millions in ireland and bengal , setting up camps in south africa that just got a wee bit out of hand , that sort of thing.
all a big misunderstanding during the colonial era. You merely went into these countries to help civilise them didnt you?
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:02:57 GMT
This is straying very far from the topic under discussion. If you wish to discuss the sins of the British Empire, why not start a separate thread. Perhaps Monte or some other management bod can re-locate associated posts over there. ok dan no problem. Back to germans bad. Or im not sure if in your case its germans good.
All this fact about the british can be a bit much for some at times.
|
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on Jul 8, 2023 14:08:15 GMT
Now you are conflating concentration camps with prisoner of war camps. i thought you would say that. wether concentration camp , internment camp or detention camp , call them what you will. The unspeakable acts of evil perpetrated in them arent washed out by changing the name monte.
Sure but the scale of evil committed in POW camps is incomparable to that of a concentration camp where tens of thousands die from neglect or in the case of the Nazis, are worked to death. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:08:20 GMT
This is straying very far from the topic under discussion. If you wish to discuss the sins of the British Empire, why not start a separate thread. Perhaps Monte or some other management bod can re-locate associated posts over there. The topic under discussion as far as i can see is fantasies about the second world war and the nazis. Ther is little doubt that there is a lot of substance to your view about the english and german being natural allies.
They are both germanic peoples , with a shared and common history , and i agree that hitler in many of the books i have read was a great admirer of the british empire.
The fact is though despite all the what ifs , they went on to clash heads , and the rest is history.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2023 14:09:12 GMT
This is straying very far from the topic under discussion. If you wish to discuss the sins of the British Empire, why not start a separate thread. Perhaps Monte or some other management bod can re-locate associated posts over there. ok dan no problem. Back to germans bad. Or im not sure if in your case its germans good.
All this fact about the british can be a bit much for some at times.
Personally, I wouldn't call random jpgs on user upload sites a fact. I also find the emotional attachment to propaganda rather revealing, so I am forced to agree with Dan Dare. Perhaps you can do some proper research and create a new thread. I recommend you learn more about what's involved if you want to be taken more seriously. I look forward to reading your report. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:15:01 GMT
i thought you would say that. wether concentration camp , internment camp or detention camp , call them what you will. The unspeakable acts of evil perpetrated in them arent washed out by changing the name monte.
Sure but the scale of evil committed in POW camps is incomparable to that of a concentration camp where tens of thousands die from neglect or in the case of the Nazis, are worked to death. I think ive adressed this many a time up the thread. You are merely trying to absolve the acts of evil by comparing where along the spectrum of atrocity they fall . FFS cromwell had the idea of a concentration camp in mass scale hundreds of years before hitler when he tried to incarcerate all native irishmen on a land reservation west of the shannon , and the fine of death for any irishmen coming east , with payment for their head of five english pounds.
If the british had learned their lessons about committing evil acts as you imply post the boer war , whay have they been condemned worldwide and fined by organisations within my own lifetime like the ECHR for their behaviour?
The british are currently under condemnation by the UN for the ethnic cleansing of the chagos islands , and are in breach of a un declaration over it.
|
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:15:42 GMT
ok dan no problem. Back to germans bad. Or im not sure if in your case its germans good.
All this fact about the british can be a bit much for some at times.
Personally, I wouldn't call random jpgs on user upload sites a fact. well if you think they arent factual prove the piciture is wrong? over to you? |
|
|
|
Post by Montegriffo on Jul 8, 2023 14:16:56 GMT
A better example would have been the forced resettlement of whole villages during the Malayan Emergency in the '50s except the villagers were not mistreated and didn't die in large numbers. The policy was so effective at denying resources to the Chinese backed insurgents hiding in the jungle that it lead to them surrendering when their food ran out since they could no longer raid villages for supplies. You know monte , i really cany understand why the world has such a poor view of the british. Im sure its all just one big misunderstanding , and that the british really were a decent bunch of chaps who behaved rather well in the face of adversity.
Apologising for kiiling unarmed civilians , torturing people and being forced to pay millions in compensation , starving millions in ireland and bengal , setting up camps in south africa that just got a wee bit out of hand , that sort of thing.
all a big misunderstanding during the colonial era. You merely went into these countries to help civilise them didnt you?
I'm not blind to the evils of Empire, however you first linked to an article claiming the British invented the concentration camp when they didn't and then went on to compare a POW camp with concentration camps which is disingenuous at best. I'm happy to join you in a bit of colonial bashing but you'll have to stick to the facts. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Jul 8, 2023 14:21:20 GMT
You know monte , i really cany understand why the world has such a poor view of the british. Im sure its all just one big misunderstanding , and that the british really were a decent bunch of chaps who behaved rather well in the face of adversity.
Apologising for kiiling unarmed civilians , torturing people and being forced to pay millions in compensation , starving millions in ireland and bengal , setting up camps in south africa that just got a wee bit out of hand , that sort of thing.
all a big misunderstanding during the colonial era. You merely went into these countries to help civilise them didnt you?
I'm not blind to the evils of Empire however you first linked to an article claiming the British invented the concentration camp when they didn't and then went on to compare a POW camp with concentration camps which is disingenuous at best. I'm happy to join you in a bit of colonial bashing but you'll have to stick to the facts. weve addressed this earlier yet again monte. So in your world , the fact the spanish pipped the british to the invention of the concentration camp makes it all ok does it? Then , to further wash out the evil of the british , you then go onto argue semantics about the names of these camps , largely trying to ignore in the process the events and atrocities perpetrated in them?
Im pretty sure an inmate in a british concentration camp wouldny have felt any better off than in a german one years later.
Im happy to be corrected where i am wrong , but so far , the only fact i appear to have got wrong according to you is that the spanish beat the british to inventing them , and the germans ran them far more efficiently.
|
|
