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Post by Pacifico on May 25, 2023 10:45:42 GMT
We've had far longer than that with crap PMs, crap MPs and crap policies. We have indeed had 44 years of Thatcherism in one guise or another. Back to controlling the commanding heights of the economy.. ..to the barricades lads..
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 10:57:40 GMT
That's your right of course but it's a little odd. You seemed to make a big thing about Tory MPs possibly joining (and by interpretation leading) your emerging populist party but now don't want to name who you have in mind to lead it (either currently a Tory or currently a leader of one of the myriad of small populist parties. May I ask why you are so reluctant? Is it because you can't think of anyone. Oddly Dan seemed to be similarly reticent - "cometh the hour cometh the man" he says yet he goes very quiet when asked who the man (or even as a last resort woman) might be. It's obvious neither Dan nor Ned are going to be lured into you "yeah but, what if" roundabout.
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Post by Orac on May 25, 2023 11:09:42 GMT
This is a bad argument imho. Imagine a team of hikers lost in the woods, some of the team think they should travel north, some think they should travel south. A coalition of the two groups is built and they decide that a fair compromise between the two views is to stand still or go east. The reality is a lot worse than even that - a government entirely made of compromises between groups can't be held properly accountable and is therefore very hard to change It isn't a fair comparison, Mags, as politics is far more complex and nuanced than "shall we go left or right?". It may be a decision on the amount of spending, areas of government assistance, industry to support with investment. More of a shall we have yellow or blue and ending up with green as a compromise. The analogy isn't perfect but it isn't particularly flawed either. Many policies are interconnected and make no sense at all set as compromises between differing views. The second problem is even more profound and dangerous though Let's imagine our hikers have two leadership candidates (leaders of two sub gangs), Alice and Bob. Alice suggests they head north and Bob suggests they head south. When the group finally realises east was the wrong direction, neither Alice or bob (or anyone) can be held accountable for the decision and so sacked. This means an incompetent leadership contribution can hide unexamined and remain in situe permanently because nobody can be held properly accountable for that incompetence. Lets imagine tyhe group finally realise that east was the wrong decision and so have to decide on a new course of action - they vote again and decide that heading west is a compromise between Alice and Bob's position. When they finally decide that going west was also the wrong choice, they will vote again and arrive at another compromise. The group now knows it is making the wrong choices but has no way to change the situation.
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Post by andrewbrown on May 25, 2023 11:25:40 GMT
No Ned, PR is a recipe for disaster and once PR is adopted there will be no going back. PR will bring nothing but coalition governments probably three way coalitions my god can you imagine it? How the hell will a three way coalition get anything done? How can a coalition possibly represent the majority of the electorate? The reason the LibDems are a political nonentity is because they entered into a coalition in 2010. PR and endless coalitions will see the death of strong majority governments and we will become just like an EU state all of which use some form of PR, which the EU firmly approves of. That should be warning enough. I could not agree less. Coalition governments are more likely to represent the majority of the electorate by producing moderate policies which please more of the electorate than a single party, surely? You speak about a coalition government as a bad thing, but the Conservative / Libdem government lasted 5 years without failing. The Libdems sold out, true, but it was Jo Swinson and her crazy "I will be PM and take us back into the EU" which got them kicked into touch. Now the Libdems have Ed Davey, a more experienced politician, they have regained that ground in the polls. If you want an example of a strong majority government, look at Boris's 80 seat majority. If you think that's good you must have rose tinted specs on. The argument that because the EU have PR it's a bad thing is rather silly. We had PR in the European elections and the Brexit Party won with 29 seats. The coalition is the most stable government that we've had since 2010. I voted LibDems in 2010, and I certainly didn’t get really what I wanted I did feel that my views were represented. Unfortunately the students fees fiasco was the death knell for the LibDems here (not Jo Swinson, that was 2019) and the Tories usurped their income tax threshold policy.
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 11:26:38 GMT
It isn't a fair comparison, Mags, as politics is far more complex and nuanced than "shall we go left or right?". It may be a decision on the amount of spending, areas of government assistance, industry to support with investment. More of a shall we have yellow or blue and ending up with green as a compromise. The analogy isn't perfect but it isn't particularly flawed either. Many policies are interconnected and make no sense at all set as compromises between differing views. The second problem is even more profound and dangerous though Let's imagine our hikers have two leadership candidates (leaders of two sub gangs), Alice and Bob. Alice suggests they head north and Bob suggests they head south. When the group finally realises east was the wrong direction, neither Alice or bob (or anyone) can be held accountable for the decision and so sacked. This means an incompetent leadership contribution can hide unexamined and remain in situe permanently because nobody can be held properly accountable for that incompetence. Lets imagine tyhe group finally realise that east was the wrong decision and so have to decide on a new course of action - they vote again and decide that heading west is a compromise between Alice and Bob's position. When they finally decide that going west was also the wrong choice, they will vote again and arrive at another compromise. The group now knows it is making the wrong choices but has no way to change the situation. Magrathea, what you are explaining goes on all the time. Mistakes and bad decisions are hidden both by the perpetrator and others, including leaders in order to save the reputation of the party. Worse still is that we often don't know when it's happening, even worse is that those who could expose it have too many skeletons in their own closet. Fact is the current system is hopeless at creating good governance and rather than what we have, I'd settle for a benevolent dictator, a de Gaulle as an example, a man who pulled the French out of the grasp of unstable politics.
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 11:29:36 GMT
I could not agree less. Coalition governments are more likely to represent the majority of the electorate by producing moderate policies which please more of the electorate than a single party, surely? You speak about a coalition government as a bad thing, but the Conservative / Libdem government lasted 5 years without failing. The Libdems sold out, true, but it was Jo Swinson and her crazy "I will be PM and take us back into the EU" which got them kicked into touch. Now the Libdems have Ed Davey, a more experienced politician, they have regained that ground in the polls. If you want an example of a strong majority government, look at Boris's 80 seat majority. If you think that's good you must have rose tinted specs on. The argument that because the EU have PR it's a bad thing is rather silly. We had PR in the European elections and the Brexit Party won with 29 seats. The coalition is the most stable government that we've had since 2010. I voted LibDems in 2010, and I certainly didn’t get really what I wanted I did feel that my views were represented. Unfortunately the students fees fiasco was the death knell for the LibDems here (not Jo Swinson, that was 2019) and the Tories usurped their income tax threshold policy. Labour Party voters and other party supporters weren't represented in government and they garnered significantly more votes than the Lib Dems.
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Post by Orac on May 25, 2023 11:49:44 GMT
The analogy isn't perfect but it isn't particularly flawed either. Many policies are interconnected and make no sense at all set as compromises between differing views. The second problem is even more profound and dangerous though Let's imagine our hikers have two leadership candidates (leaders of two sub gangs), Alice and Bob. Alice suggests they head north and Bob suggests they head south. When the group finally realises east was the wrong direction, neither Alice or bob (or anyone) can be held accountable for the decision and so sacked. This means an incompetent leadership contribution can hide unexamined and remain in situe permanently because nobody can be held properly accountable for that incompetence. Lets imagine tyhe group finally realise that east was the wrong decision and so have to decide on a new course of action - they vote again and decide that heading west is a compromise between Alice and Bob's position. When they finally decide that going west was also the wrong choice, they will vote again and arrive at another compromise. The group now knows it is making the wrong choices but has no way to change the situation. Magrathea, what you are explaining goes on all the time. Mistakes and bad decisions are hidden both by the perpetrator and others, including leaders in order to save the reputation of the party. Worse still is that we often don't know when it's happening, even worse is that those who could expose it have too many skeletons in their own closet. Fact is the current system is hopeless at creating good governance and rather than what we have, I'd settle for a benevolent dictator, a de Gaulle as an example, a man who pulled the French out of the grasp of unstable politics. In this case nobody has to hide their culpability because literally nobody is culpable. The current problems are caused by the elected government being borked by an over-powerful bureaucratic administration who effectively is the government. Changing the electoral system wont adjust that. Changing it to Pr will likely remove the accountability we have
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Post by andrewbrown on May 25, 2023 12:01:15 GMT
The coalition is the most stable government that we've had since 2010. I voted LibDems in 2010, and I certainly didn’t get really what I wanted I did feel that my views were represented. Unfortunately the students fees fiasco was the death knell for the LibDems here (not Jo Swinson, that was 2019) and the Tories usurped their income tax threshold policy. Labour Party voters and other party supporters weren't represented in government and they garnered significantly more votes than the Lib Dems. Well of course we'll never know what a Labour Tory coalition would have done in 2010, although policy wise I don't think it would have ended up that differently. Politically it would have been different though and I don't think we would have ended up with Cameron's referendum. Unfortunately we'll never know now. I also wonder what would have happened if Nick Clegg had chosen to work with Gordon Brown instead.
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 14:00:32 GMT
Magrathea, what you are explaining goes on all the time. Mistakes and bad decisions are hidden both by the perpetrator and others, including leaders in order to save the reputation of the party. Worse still is that we often don't know when it's happening, even worse is that those who could expose it have too many skeletons in their own closet. Fact is the current system is hopeless at creating good governance and rather than what we have, I'd settle for a benevolent dictator, a de Gaulle as an example, a man who pulled the French out of the grasp of unstable politics. In this case nobody has to hide their culpability because literally nobody is culpable. The current problems are caused by the elected government being borked by an over-powerful bureaucratic administration who effectively is the government. Changing the electoral system wont adjust that. Changing it to Pr will likely remove the accountability we have Reform UK are committed to re-organising the civil service. The Tories have a plan to do the same but it's not working, in fact they've had plans for ten years or more and they didn't work either. Richard Tice, their leader, is a really nice gentlemanly guy but he's also a sharp businessman. Many of the candidates are business people, not the uni-educated jerks who having left, went immediately into some sort of politics job as researchers or aides and have never experienced a real job. Many achieved a degree in nothing worthwhile, they're easy meat when it comes to the hustings. Here's Reform UK's policy on the civil service and here's a link to all their policies: assets.nationbuilder.com/reformuk/pages/19/attachments/original/1671551989/Reform-is-Essential-Dec2022.pdf• Every day we see examples of wasteful, bad or unnecessary spending of our money by councils, public services or the Government. • Tens of billions of pounds of our money is wasted every year. This also acts as a brake on our growth rate. • Reform UK knows that with better leadership, better buying, better decisions, this waste of our money can be cut right back, without affecting front line services. • This needs real reform of the civil service — with more accountability — for quality performance. It needs more successful private sector people coming into the civil service to use their skills to help get better value for the Government. Let’s make it part of our moral duty to society — to give something back. • • One of the worst areas of wasteful government spending is ineffective foreign aid. Our civil servants struggle to give away the billions of pounds each year, so they end up giving money to the EU and other global bodies to help spend it. We would reduce the foreign aid budget by 50%, down to a still generous 0.35% of GDP.
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Post by Toreador on May 25, 2023 14:19:47 GMT
Labour Party voters and other party supporters weren't represented in government and they garnered significantly more votes than the Lib Dems. Well of course we'll never know what a Labour Tory coalition would have done in 2010, although policy wise I don't think it would have ended up that differently. Politically it would have been different though and I don't think we would have ended up with Cameron's referendum. Unfortunately we'll never know now. I also wonder what would have happened if Nick Clegg had chosen to work with Gordon Brown instead. If you were well enough informed you would know that Clegg's sidekick, Vince Cable, was trying to subvert the Lib Dem/Tory pact by discussing with Brown the prospect of a Lib Dem/Labour government. The two had known each other for years and Cable was almost Brown's mentor at times; it's also worth noting that Cable came from the Labour Party to the Lib Dems in the early 80s.
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Post by andrewbrown on May 25, 2023 14:53:31 GMT
Yes, it's well documented. I'm not sure of the relevance to my post though?
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