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Post by Dan Dare on May 24, 2023 12:51:04 GMT
Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
The dissident right need to find a unifying leader of the calibre of an Enoch Powell for the disparate factions to abandon their parochial concerns and petty squabbling.
If and when that occurs it seems quite clear there is a public appetite for the sort of platform they would promote as an antidote to the economically neo-liberal and socially progressive cul-de-sac that is shared by all the mainstream parties.
Neo-Liberal. definition. "favouring policies that promote free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending:" "Shared by all the main stream parties" --- I don't think so. Which ones don't? I'm talking about the mainstream parliamentary parties, not the unreconstructed fringe.
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 13:00:49 GMT
LOL, yes indeed, nasty far right fascist Margaret Thatcher. You're a typical outraged lefty. You angrily scream & shout but have no real idea what your screaming and shouting about. I have two pieces of advice for you see2, read up, and grow up. Hard right fascist indeed, lol. Get in the bin. She argued often enough against the EU. I'd like to know the date she made that statement, I'd probably add it to the lies she said on the steps of number 10. But if you think that someone who could throw millions out of work, close down thousands of businesses, destroy the old apprenticeship system, children living in R/poverty up to 3million, sell off our gas and oil along with the rest of the family silver in order to support her failed ideology, leave gaping black holes where state education and the NHS should be, and was finally dumped by her own party, is not an extremist then you are entirely misjudging the situation and are no doubt led by the nose by Thatcher propagandists. 20 September 1988 — Speech to the College of Europe ("The Bruges Speech")
It also contained the following:
We British are as much heirs to the legacy of European culture as any other nation. Our links to the rest of Europe, the continent of Europe, have been the dominant factor in our history.
For three hundred years, we were part of the Roman Empire and our maps still trace the straight lines of the roads the Romans built.
Our ancestors—Celts, Saxons, Danes—came from the Continent. [end p1]
Our nation was—in that favourite Community word— “restructured” under the Norman and Angevin rule in the eleventh and twelfth centuries.
While probably not being obviously ethnically British, I admit that I owe much of what I am to "the British"...
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 17:18:40 GMT
I see the posters who have nothing to add but childish name calling have moved in. It seems to be tolerated by the mods so presumably that is what the site wants. Ho hum. The thread was starting to get circular anyway. Pacifico is desperate to find some electoral justification for the Tory party to move towards his political viewpoint but the facts simply do not support him. We tried it with Truss, it was a disaster, Tory support abandoned the ship in droves and after the lies and corruption of Johnson that support has yet to recover. It seems inevitable that after the next election there will be civil war in the party between the one nationers and the populists and to be fair they probably do have to decide what they want to be and present a united front behind that. It will be interesting to see where they go. Thank you to Pacifico for a least engaging in a grown up conversation. I already gave a sensible reply along the lines of your OP, which you ignored. If you want a higher "quality" of thread, start it in the mind zone. Otherwise quit carping with your so needy comments.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 17:22:03 GMT
We haven't really got a party that represents the right, not even center right, we've got three lefty swinging parties struggling to see who can be the most wokiest, so now we need a fourth contender who is speaking for those of us who want center ground. According to some on here Reform UK is not only right-wing but far right. Yes. Some would start mentioning Colonel Blimps from Tunbridge Wells, the BNP-lite and anything right of centre MUST be referred to as far right, for effect, like they're all little Himmlers. Richard Tice happens to be sensible-ish.
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Post by sheepy on May 24, 2023 17:24:43 GMT
There are at least 17 million voters who are not being represented in any way shape or form. That is a fact.
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Post by Toreador on May 24, 2023 17:52:37 GMT
According to some on here Reform UK is not only right-wing but far right. Yes. Some would start mentioning Colonel Blimps from Tunbridge Wells, the BNP-lite and anything right of centre MUST be referred to as far right, for effect, like they're all little Himmlers. Richard Tice happens to be sensible-ish. Richard's a nice guy, probably to nice and doesn't have enough fire in his belly.
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 19:50:58 GMT
Hello folks. Hope you don't mind me popping back in hope that you can explain your thinking to me on one specific subject. (Grateful if this thread can avoid insults, abuse and petty squabbling please) The next election is perhaps 16 months away so could yet change but it currently looks most likely that Labour will take power - whether majority or minority. IF that happens it seems certain that the Tories would then engage in a battle for the direction the party should take next between the more centrist "one nationers" and the ideological low tax, low regulation socially conservative populists/UKIP/Trussist side. (lets not argue over terminology - even if you do not like the term can we for sake of this thread refer to that viewpoint as populist). Indeed with Braverman's speech to the conference last week and then leaked blow back about speeding tickets and non attendance at 3rd reading of immigration bills, it seems that fight is already well under way. To this centre/left poster, it feels like the Tories have much the same judgment to make as Labour did when they chose Corbyn as their leader. Do they move towards the views of its members who tend by definition to be further from the centre or do they seek to move back towards the centre ditching the populist anti woke rhetoric and related policies Now I am guessing that the majority on this forum would prefer to move towards the populist agenda and while I don't agree with those policies, I accept that is a perfectly valid aspiration. My question that I would welcome your views on are twofold 1) Do you believe that a move towards populism would be electorally popular. If so what is your evidence for that view (especially given that UKIP were wiped out in the recent local elections and Reform only won seats in two neighbouring wards in Derby) 2) IF populism was not a vote winner would you regardless prefer the Tories to advocate those policies even if that meant defeat or would you prefer a more centrist party which gave you some but not all of what you wanted after the say 2029 election Thank you. In some previous elections, particularly the last European election we took part in, the populist party was created at the very last minute and was immensely popular. Perhaps the populist party for the next general election has not emerged fully, or some of the heavy hitters have not declared themselves to be a part of it. I don't care what the Tories or Labour do, they are dead to me. A new populist party needs to emerge. The Tories feared UKIP, they feared the Brexit party at the last election and they'll fear either Reform or Reclaim, whichever becomes prominent. To be fair Ned your response was sensible and honestly I missed it. Sorry about that. Not sure what you mean by “emerge” to be honest. Reform and Reclaim and UKIP and the others are all out there but just don’t get much support. Perhaps they might do better if they merged but I’m not convinced. Not sure also what you mean by big hitters have not declared themselves. Are you referring to Farage on one of his threatened come backs?
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 19:58:18 GMT
See edit above
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 20:09:21 GMT
In some previous elections, particularly the last European election we took part in, the populist party was created at the very last minute and was immensely popular. Perhaps the populist party for the next general election has not emerged fully, or some of the heavy hitters have not declared themselves to be a part of it. I don't care what the Tories or Labour do, they are dead to me. A new populist party needs to emerge. The Tories feared UKIP, they feared the Brexit party at the last election and they'll fear either Reform or Reclaim, whichever becomes prominent. To be fair Ned your response was sensible and honestly I missed it. Sorry about that. Not sure what you mean by “emerge” to be honest. Reform and Reclaim and UKIP and the others are all out there but just don’t get much support. Perhaps they might do better if they merged but I’m not convinced. Not sure also what you mean by big hitters have not declared themselves. Are you referring to Farage on one of his threatened come backs? Farage will not stand again, IMO. However, there are about 40 Tory MPs which have said they will not stand for the party again. They could all be loose cannons and possible recruits to a populist party. My honest opinion is that the minor parties will be trashed, which is a shame.
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Post by Red Rackham on May 24, 2023 20:24:59 GMT
To be fair Ned your response was sensible and honestly I missed it. Sorry about that. Not sure what you mean by “emerge” to be honest. Reform and Reclaim and UKIP and the others are all out there but just don’t get much support. Perhaps they might do better if they merged but I’m not convinced. Not sure also what you mean by big hitters have not declared themselves. Are you referring to Farage on one of his threatened come backs? Farage will not stand again, IMO. However, there are about 40 Tory MPs which have said they will not stand for the party again. They could all be loose cannons and possible recruits to a populist party. My honest opinion is that the minor parties will be trashed, which is a shame. Oh I don't know, you think minor parties will be trashed Ned. It's possible, but unlikely. I agree it's difficult for small parties to get established due to the FPTP system, a system I agree with. But do you remember a party called UKIP that appeared in 1993. It was a political nonentity, but slowly gained ground and went from less than 1% of the vote in 1997 to 12.6% of the vote in 2015, which is why Cameron was forced to allow a referendum. UKIP was a small party, but could no longer be ignored.
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 20:42:01 GMT
Not sure any of the Tory MPs exiting would join a smaller party tbh but if you could have your choice of one Tory MP to lead your new populist party, who would it be?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2023 20:42:03 GMT
Farage will not stand again, IMO. However, there are about 40 Tory MPs which have said they will not stand for the party again. They could all be loose cannons and possible recruits to a populist party. My honest opinion is that the minor parties will be trashed, which is a shame. Oh I don't know, you think minor parties will be trashed Ned. It's possible, but unlikely. I agree it's difficult for small parties to get established due to the FPTP system, a system I agree with. But do you remember a party called UKIP that appeared in 1993. It was a political nonentity, but slowly gained ground and went from less than 1% of the vote in 1997 to 12.6% of the vote in 2015, which is why Cameron was forced to allow a referendum. UKIP was a small party, but could no longer be ignored. With 12.6% of the vote they would have 80+ MPs under Proportional Representation. Anti-democrats would say that would be wrong. I say it would be absolutely fair.
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Post by Pacifico on May 24, 2023 21:16:22 GMT
Oh I don't know, you think minor parties will be trashed Ned. It's possible, but unlikely. I agree it's difficult for small parties to get established due to the FPTP system, a system I agree with. But do you remember a party called UKIP that appeared in 1993. It was a political nonentity, but slowly gained ground and went from less than 1% of the vote in 1997 to 12.6% of the vote in 2015, which is why Cameron was forced to allow a referendum. UKIP was a small party, but could no longer be ignored. With 12.6% of the vote they would have 80+ MPs under Proportional Representation. Anti-democrats would say that would be wrong. I say it would be absolutely fair. Better than that - under PR UKIP got 26% of the vote in 2014 and in 2017 (under Farages renamed Brexit Party) they got 30%. In both elections they were the largest Party.
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 21:44:47 GMT
Oh I don't know, you think minor parties will be trashed Ned. It's possible, but unlikely. I agree it's difficult for small parties to get established due to the FPTP system, a system I agree with. But do you remember a party called UKIP that appeared in 1993. It was a political nonentity, but slowly gained ground and went from less than 1% of the vote in 1997 to 12.6% of the vote in 2015, which is why Cameron was forced to allow a referendum. UKIP was a small party, but could no longer be ignored. With 12.6% of the vote they would have 80+ MPs under Proportional Representation. Anti-democrats would say that would be wrong. I say it would be absolutely fair. While I dislike everything UKIP stood for, I absolutely agree with you. You didn’t answer which current Tory MP would lead your new party.
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Post by Red Rackham on May 24, 2023 23:32:53 GMT
Oh I don't know, you think minor parties will be trashed Ned. It's possible, but unlikely. I agree it's difficult for small parties to get established due to the FPTP system, a system I agree with. But do you remember a party called UKIP that appeared in 1993. It was a political nonentity, but slowly gained ground and went from less than 1% of the vote in 1997 to 12.6% of the vote in 2015, which is why Cameron was forced to allow a referendum. UKIP was a small party, but could no longer be ignored. With 12.6% of the vote they would have 80+ MPs under Proportional Representation. Anti-democrats would say that would be wrong. I say it would be absolutely fair. No Ned, PR is a recipe for disaster and once PR is adopted there will be no going back. PR will bring nothing but coalition governments probably three way coalitions my god can you imagine it? How the hell will a three way coalition get anything done? How can a coalition possibly represent the majority of the electorate? The reason the LibDems are a political nonentity is because they entered into a coalition in 2010. PR and endless coalitions will see the death of strong majority governments and we will become just like an EU state all of which use some form of PR, which the EU firmly approves of. That should be warning enough.
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