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Post by see2 on May 24, 2023 6:46:01 GMT
But aren't the majority of the electorate in the middle? Theoretically yes - but the 'middle of politics' has been redefined by systematic BBC repetition. The median UK political position is left of daily express, but not that far left of it. Both political parties are now significantly left of the median position - which is probably quite unstable Many of the editorial positions held by the BBC or the Guardian are so minority they may as well be described as 'crackpot' or 'lunatic fringe' rather than merely 'left' "by systemic BBC repetitions" I think there is a touch of neurosis showing there. The express is far right. The Guardian exposes so much of the nonsense from the Right of politics, it is good that someone has enough sense to do just that. To suggest or insinuate that may well be described as 'crackpot' or lunatic fringe rather than merely left, is absolute rightist nonsense. |
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Post by andrewbrown on May 24, 2023 6:52:53 GMT
2016 we didn't have a general election, so we have no idea on left / right distribution (in fact it appears that working class lefties got the leave vote over the line in the referendum). 2017 the Tories moved from Cameron to May and lost their majority. I'm unsure of your point, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the general public (as opposed to Pacifico's use of "Tory Supporters") want a switch to the right. Your side lost sunlight. FFS move on man and stop whinging No. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 24, 2023 6:55:02 GMT
I think you may have missed my point - not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. You appear to have merged the two. They voted for Tory policies. I accept that there may have been a very small minority who totally disagreed with all the policies advocated but just didn't want Corbyn - but I doubt they were in any significant numbers. |
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Post by johnofgwent on May 24, 2023 7:00:40 GMT
The issue to me seems utterly straightforward.
Boris chose in the face of literal extermination at the hands of the Chinese Pox to embrace socialism and throw money around like Corbyn wished he could have.
A real Tory would have left the country free to die of the pox. The only real problem for Boris is most of the Leave voters would have died first.
Having poured more money down the shitter than even not flash just gordon Brown managed to do to keep the city bankers in champers and foie gras, they had to find a way to recoup it. Wrlcome to death by poverty.
Nothing could explain Tory woes today more fully than the actions of the party and Jeremy (k)Hunt in particular. Faced with business extermination and family destitution through the policies of New Electricity Trading Arrangements invented by Thatcher, the party do and say absolutely fuck all while every domestic bill payer dtares down the barrel of a 400% price rise and every business stares down the barrel of a 4000% one and most of that is done to us by companies allowed to crucify us so as to keep bill rises in their home countries to single figure percentages.
With everyone up to and including multi millionaires clamouring that they see no future in which electricity bills of this magnitude can be paid, the tories make no comment, present no proposal and instead focus on exterminating a hapless idiot whose buffoonery has come home to roost and then the party insiders conspire to exterminate the members choice of replacement in a coup to appoint the tax evader.
Frankly I’m surprised they only lost 1,100 councillors and the ONLY way they will not follow the fate of the dodo is to declare war on China, win the ensuing nuclear conflict in a week and plunder the country’s riches Victorian Imperial style to return the wealth of the average brit to what it was under ‘you’ve never had it so good’ Supermac
Dappy’s question is pointless because the party is finished in its present incarnation.
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Post by jonksy on May 24, 2023 7:26:50 GMT
Your side lost sunlight. FFS move on man and stop whinging No. You live i your imaginary world sunshine. The rest of us live in the real world. |
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Post by Orac on May 24, 2023 7:38:10 GMT
Frankly I’m surprised they only lost 1,100 councillors and the ONLY way they will not follow the fate of the dodo is to declare war on China, win the ensuing nuclear conflict in a week and plunder the country’s riches Victorian Imperial style to return the wealth of the average brit to what it was under ‘you’ve never had it so good’ Supermac Dappy’s question is pointless because the party is finished in its present incarnation. I agree with much of your summary. One big mistake was allowing socialistic, conniving mandarins and media flappers to corner them into massively over-reacting to the covid emergency. The sad thing here is that, despite his many flaws, Boris actually had pretty good conservative intuitions on the matter but deferred to 'experts' to avoid a political risk. The sort of disaster that would really warranted turning the country off for a year would have been a 20% death rate - it was pretty clear, pretty soon that covid was not that. I actually feel a bit sorry for members of the left that haven't grocked this yet - they are beating away at a traditional target that is more or less a ghost. The only thing that can be said in favour of the Tories presently is that are not actually labour and there are still a few, heavily out-numbered and out-gunned, decent people in the party, who are valiantly trying to force the party to do some of what appeared in the manifesto that drew large numbers from Labour. These people likely have no chance at all. Edit to add- These people have no chance berceuse they are up against the 'central committee' of their own party, the Labour party and the civil service / BBC party - ie the entire establishment + the labour party. |
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 8:12:49 GMT
I see the posters who have nothing to add but childish name calling have moved in. It seems to be tolerated by the mods so presumably that is what the site wants. Ho hum.
The thread was starting to get circular anyway. Pacifico is desperate to find some electoral justification for the Tory party to move towards his political viewpoint but the facts simply do not support him. We tried it with Truss, it was a disaster, Tory support abandoned the ship in droves and after the lies and corruption of Johnson that support has yet to recover. It seems inevitable that after the next election there will be civil war in the party between the one nationers and the populists and to be fair they probably do have to decide what they want to be and present a united front behind that. It will be interesting to see where they go.
Thank you to Pacifico for a least engaging in a grown up conversation.
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Post by Red Rackham on May 24, 2023 9:11:42 GMT
You obviously haven't heard of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory. During her tenure as prime minister we had record unemployment, record interest rates, and record home repossessions. She was elected in 1979 and spent the next eleven years in office becoming the longest serving prime minister of the 20th century. In spite of the economic uncertainties of the 1980's she remained a centre right Conservative and won landslide elections. The biggest problem the modern conservative party has, is the fact that it isn't very Conservative. Sunak may find that if he moved the party back to it's more traditional centre right ground it would pay dividends. "You obviously haven't heard of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory." That is probably the most ridiculous assertion of the decade. That "stocking footed fascist" was as hard right as it was possible without entering Fascist territory. She wasn't a personal friend of Pinochet for nothing and wouldn't have taken on his hard Right Neo Liberalism that no decent centre right government would entertain, if she was center right. Thatcher was an economic and a social disaster. You really do need a dep rethink. LOL, yes indeed, nasty far right fascist Margaret Thatcher. You're a typical outraged lefty. You angrily scream & shout but have no real idea what your screaming and shouting about. I have two pieces of advice for you see2, read up, and grow up. Hard right fascist indeed, lol. Get in the bin.  |
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Post by Orac on May 24, 2023 10:07:04 GMT
Theoretically yes - but the 'middle of politics' has been redefined by systematic BBC repetition. The median UK political position is left of daily express, but not that far left of it. Both political parties are now significantly left of the median position - which is probably quite unstable Many of the editorial positions held by the BBC or the Guardian are so minority they may as well be described as 'crackpot' or 'lunatic fringe' rather than merely 'left' The express is far right. This is just an artefact of the bizarre BBC labelling system I warned you about in my previous post. The Daily Express is clearly not 'far right' by any reasonable measure. Does the Express advocate for (say) the criminalisation of homosexuality or for the vote to be removed from women? Nope. They are not even particularly socially conservative, never mind 'far right'. I am somewhat more socially conservative than a Daily Express and I am am pretty well a moderate who is slightly to the right. |
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Post by om15 on May 24, 2023 10:45:23 GMT
The Conservatives have failed to implement their election pledges and have failed to live up to the expectations of those that voted for them.
After the next election they will have to decide whether they intend to be a party that follows the traditional Tory Party values or are a party to adopt LibDem policies. Trying to be both is not effective governance nor will it win them any elections. Their choices of Prime Minister have been unfortunate, particularly so when they have failed to support any of their choices.
My guess is that they will follow the LibDem route and many on the right wing of the party will leave politics or join another right leaning party, the Conservatives as we would like to see them will not exist.
Assisted by the left leaning Civil Service and Establishment the Tories have been instrumental, or at least complicit, in getting rid of Boris Johnson, Dominic Raab, Liz Truss, Prit Patel, and almost Suella Braverman, they certainly don't deserve to remain in Government.
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Post by Pacifico on May 24, 2023 10:48:04 GMT
This is the most left-wing Tory Party in my lifetime - they also have the lowest level of support.
They may recover that support by going even further left but personally I cannot see it.
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Post by Fairsociety on May 24, 2023 10:51:52 GMT
We haven't really got a party that represents the right, not even center right, we've got three lefty swinging parties struggling to see who can be the most wokiest, so now we need a fourth contender who is speaking for those of us who want center ground.
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 11:05:02 GMT
I think you may have missed my point - not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. You appear to have merged the two. They voted for Tory policies. I accept that there may have been a very small minority who totally disagreed with all the policies advocated but just didn't want Corbyn - but I doubt they were in any significant numbers. Disagree. The Corbyn factor accounted for a significant proportion of Labour votes going elsewhere as the public became growingly aware of the guy’s immature Marxist take on most things, and the resulting disregard of the situations of many traditional Labour voters. The Tories got just 43% of the total votes cast… |
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Post by Orac on May 24, 2023 11:07:04 GMT
They voted for Tory policies. I accept that there may have been a very small minority who totally disagreed with all the policies advocated but just didn't want Corbyn - but I doubt they were in any significant numbers. Disagree. The Corbyn factor accounted for a significant proportion of Labour votes going elsewhere as the public became growingly aware of the guy’s immature Marxist take on most things, and the resulting disregard of the situations of many traditional Labour voters… The Liberal Democrats offered such voters an option - or was there some kind of problem with them as well? |
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Post by Toreador on May 24, 2023 11:10:53 GMT
We haven't really got a party that represents the right, not even center right, we've got three lefty swinging parties struggling to see who can be the most wokiest, so now we need a fourth contender who is speaking for those of us who want center ground. According to some on here Reform UK is not only right-wing but far right. |
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