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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 11:19:56 GMT
Disagree. The Corbyn factor accounted for a significant proportion of Labour votes going elsewhere as the public became growingly aware of the guy’s immature Marxist take on most things, and the resulting disregard of the situations of many traditional Labour voters… The Liberal Democrats offered such voters an option - or was there some kind of problem with them as well? The Lib Dems increased their share of the vote across the UK, but failed to translate these gains into more seats… www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50770798 |
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Post by Fairsociety on May 24, 2023 11:20:18 GMT
We haven't really got a party that represents the right, not even center right, we've got three lefty swinging parties struggling to see who can be the most wokiest, so now we need a fourth contender who is speaking for those of us who want center ground. According to some on here Reform UK is not only right-wing but far right. Any political party is branded right-wing or far-right and racist, if it has the abbreviation UK in it.
apparently the outraged woke lefties get outraged if anything has those abbreviations in it, UK, and wave a Union Jack round and that's it you're branded a dirty racist far-right thug.
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Post by Orac on May 24, 2023 11:24:00 GMT
The Liberal Democrats offered such voters an option - or was there some kind of problem with them as well? The Lib Dems increased their share of the vote across the UK, but failed to translate these gains into more seats… www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50770798They 'increased their share' from tiny to smallish If your theory held any water, their vote share gains at the expense of labour should have been gigantic - but they weren't. The principal beneficiaries of Labour's losses were the Conservatives. |
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 11:24:04 GMT
We haven't really got a party that represents the right, not even center right, we've got three lefty swinging parties struggling to see who can be the most wokiest, so now we need a fourth contender who is speaking for those of us who want center ground. According to some on here Reform UK is not only right-wing but far right. There really isn’t any longer an irritant of the significance of Ukip. Thus the various Right Wing factions within the Tory Party are all there are… |
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 11:31:03 GMT
Nonetheless Patman there are loads of them representing that strand of opinion - Reform, Reclaim (who even have an MP now), UKIP, Heritage, English Democrats - probably a few more that don't instantly spring to mind. None of them seem overly attractive to the electorate though, or from posts asking for yet another to people with "populist views". It would seem sensible for all these parties to merge into one surely - its all a bit Monty Python at the moment. Anyone know why that hasn't happened?
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 11:34:39 GMT
They 'increased their share' from tiny to smallish If your theory held any water, their vote share gains at the expense of labour should have been gigantic - but they weren't. The principal beneficiaries of Labour's losses were the Conservatives. I don’t disagree that the Conservatives were the biggest beneficiaries of migrating Labour votes in 2019. My theory, as you refer to it, is that Corbyn was a significant factor in Labour losing votes — it wasn’t just Tory policies that attracted previous Labour voters. The recent Labour successes in the local elections show that it’s no longer out of favour… |
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 11:46:00 GMT
Nonetheless Patman there are loads of them representing that strand of opinion - Reform, Reclaim (who even have an MP now), UKIP, Heritage, English Democrats - probably a few more that don't instantly spring to mind. None of them seem overly attractive to the electorate though, or from posts asking for yet another to people with "populist views". It would seem sensible for all these parties to merge into one surely - its all a bit Monty Python at the moment. Anyone know why that hasn't happened? There have always been Far Right, middling pressure groups, and Far Left political parties and groupings on the fringes of UK politics — some registered and some not. Ukip was probably the most significant since the SDP and, perhaps, whatever Communist party is active in trade union circles these days. It seems to me that there’s a lack of charismatic leaders in these fringes able to form effective alliances or mergers… |
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Post by Orac on May 24, 2023 11:52:59 GMT
They 'increased their share' from tiny to smallish If your theory held any water, their vote share gains at the expense of labour should have been gigantic - but they weren't. The principal beneficiaries of Labour's losses were the Conservatives. My theory, as you refer to it, is that Corbyn was a significant factor in Labour losing votes — it wasn’t just Tory policies that attracted previous Labour voters. What is interesting is that these people didn't seem to be solely (or even mostly) animated by a dislike of Corbyn in particular - (which is not the same thing as saying they didn't dislike him). However, you are probably technically correct that it was a factor of some size. |
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Post by Dan Dare on May 24, 2023 12:01:09 GMT
Nonetheless Patman there are loads of them representing that strand of opinion - Reform, Reclaim (who even have an MP now), UKIP, Heritage, English Democrats - probably a few more that don't instantly spring to mind. None of them seem overly attractive to the electorate though, or from posts asking for yet another to people with "populist views". It would seem sensible for all these parties to merge into one surely - its all a bit Monty Python at the moment. Anyone know why that hasn't happened? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
The dissident right need to find a unifying leader of the calibre of an Enoch Powell for the disparate factions to abandon their parochial concerns and petty squabbling.
If and when that occurs it seems quite clear there is a public appetite for the sort of platform they would promote as an antidote to the economically neo-liberal and socially progressive cul-de-sac that is shared by all the mainstream parties.
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Post by dappy on May 24, 2023 12:16:33 GMT
OK let's play Dan.
Unlikely surely that much will change pre election. Lets say that at the election, Labour win but not a majority and the price of cooperation is PR. The lesson of Change UK is that under FPTP splintering off is electoral suicide but PR opens up new opportunities. Lets say that the sane Tories win their post election civil war and the likes of Braverman, Johnson, Patel, Rees Mogg look for a "populist" party to be the fourth force, merging with all the little ones. Who should lead it in your view? Which man or woman should cometh? Braverman? Johnson? Rees-Mogg? Patel? Farage? Hamilton?, Tice?, Fox?, Kuerten?, Griffin (still alive?)? or is there someone else?
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Post by patman post on May 24, 2023 12:16:44 GMT
My theory, as you refer to it, is that Corbyn was a significant factor in Labour losing votes — it wasn’t just Tory policies that attracted previous Labour voters. What is interesting is that these people didn't seem to be solely (or even mostly) animated by a dislike of Corbyn in particular - (which is not the same thing as saying they didn't dislike him). However, you are probably technically correct that it was a factor of some size. Probably I’ll be pilloried, but I think Corbyn is probably a decent human being who still clings to decades out of date immature opinions formed in his student days. Although way out of his competence quotient as Labour leader, his befuddled demeanour and side-kick shadow chancellor, McDonnell, got him plenty of support in his first election. He’s probably now out of the scene, whereas Johnson might be back… |
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Post by see2 on May 24, 2023 12:20:28 GMT
Nonetheless Patman there are loads of them representing that strand of opinion - Reform, Reclaim (who even have an MP now), UKIP, Heritage, English Democrats - probably a few more that don't instantly spring to mind. None of them seem overly attractive to the electorate though, or from posts asking for yet another to people with "populist views". It would seem sensible for all these parties to merge into one surely - its all a bit Monty Python at the moment. Anyone know why that hasn't happened? Cometh the hour, cometh the man.
The dissident right need to find a unifying leader of the calibre of an Enoch Powell for the disparate factions to abandon their parochial concerns and petty squabbling.
If and when that occurs it seems quite clear there is a public appetite for the sort of platform they would promote as an antidote to the economically neo-liberal and socially progressive cul-de-sac that is shared by all the mainstream parties.
Neo-Liberal. definition. "favouring policies that promote free-market capitalism, deregulation, and reduction in government spending:" "Shared by all the main stream parties" --- I don't think so. |
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Post by see2 on May 24, 2023 12:40:43 GMT
"You obviously haven't heard of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory." That is probably the most ridiculous assertion of the decade. That "stocking footed fascist" was as hard right as it was possible without entering Fascist territory. She wasn't a personal friend of Pinochet for nothing and wouldn't have taken on his hard Right Neo Liberalism that no decent centre right government would entertain, if she was center right. Thatcher was an economic and a social disaster. You really do need a dep rethink. LOL, yes indeed, nasty far right fascist Margaret Thatcher. You're a typical outraged lefty. You angrily scream & shout but have no real idea what your screaming and shouting about. I have two pieces of advice for you see2, read up, and grow up. Hard right fascist indeed, lol. Get in the bin.  She argued often enough against the EU. I'd like to know the date she made that statement, I'd probably add it to the lies she said on the steps of number 10. But if you think that someone who could throw millions out of work, close down thousands of businesses, destroy the old apprenticeship system, children living in R/poverty up to 3million, sell off our gas and oil along with the rest of the family silver in order to support her failed ideology, leave gaping black holes where state education and the NHS should be, and was finally dumped by her own party, is not an extremist then you are entirely misjudging the situation and are no doubt led by the nose by Thatcher propagandists. |
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Post by Red Rackham on May 24, 2023 12:44:09 GMT
She argued often enough against the EU. I'd like to know the date she made that statement, I'd probably add it to the lies she said on the steps of number 10. But if you think that someone who could throw millions out of work, close down thousands of businesses, destroy the old apprenticeship system, children living in R/poverty up to 3million, sell off our gas and oil along with the rest of the family silver in order to support her failed ideology, leave gaping black holes where state education and the NHS should be, and was finally dumped by her own party, is not an extremist then you are entirely misjudging the situation and are no doubt led by the nose by Thatcher propagandists. I can almost taste those bitter left wing remainiac tears.  |
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Post by Toreador on May 24, 2023 12:48:28 GMT
They 'increased their share' from tiny to smallish If your theory held any water, their vote share gains at the expense of labour should have been gigantic - but they weren't. The principal beneficiaries of Labour's losses were the Conservatives. I don’t disagree that the Conservatives were the biggest beneficiaries of migrating Labour votes in 2019. My theory, as you refer to it, is that Corbyn was a significant factor in Labour losing votes — it wasn’t just Tory policies that attracted previous Labour voters. The recent Labour successes in the local elections show that it’s no longer out of favour… Perhaps the better way to look at it is the 2019 EU elections where the Brexit Party took so many seats by heavily taking votes from Labour. Had Boris got even close to getting Brexit done in the way people thought he meant, then what happened at the local elections would not have happened. Instead we got a mish-mash caused by Boris and his government, educated people without a clue. Many will disagree with the view we need Nigel or someone of his calibre, someone who can take on the idiots. None of the mainstream leaders come remotely close and I can't immediately think of anyone with enough clout and vision to straighten this country out though there is more than one or two in Reform UK with potential. I've met several Reform members who became EU MPs and they're though they may have one time voted for a mainstream party, they are not what I would call party political animals, like Farage their aim is to get things done. |
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