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Post by dappy on May 22, 2023 15:53:37 GMT
Hello folks. Hope you don't mind me popping back in hope that you can explain your thinking to me on one specific subject. (Grateful if this thread can avoid insults, abuse and petty squabbling please)
The next election is perhaps 16 months away so could yet change but it currently looks most likely that Labour will take power - whether majority or minority.
IF that happens it seems certain that the Tories would then engage in a battle for the direction the party should take next between the more centrist "one nationers" and the ideological low tax, low regulation socially conservative populists/UKIP/Trussist side. (lets not argue over terminology - even if you do not like the term can we for sake of this thread refer to that viewpoint as populist). Indeed with Braverman's speech to the conference last week and then leaked blow back about speeding tickets and non attendance at 3rd reading of immigration bills, it seems that fight is already well under way.
To this centre/left poster, it feels like the Tories have much the same judgment to make as Labour did when they chose Corbyn as their leader. Do they move towards the views of its members who tend by definition to be further from the centre or do they seek to move back towards the centre ditching the populist anti woke rhetoric and related policies
Now I am guessing that the majority on this forum would prefer to move towards the populist agenda and while I don't agree with those policies, I accept that is a perfectly valid aspiration. My question that I would welcome your views on are twofold
1) Do you believe that a move towards populism would be electorally popular. If so what is your evidence for that view (especially given that UKIP were wiped out in the recent local elections and Reform only won seats in two neighbouring wards in Derby)
2) IF populism was not a vote winner would you regardless prefer the Tories to advocate those policies even if that meant defeat or would you prefer a more centrist party which gave you some but not all of what you wanted after the say 2029 election
Thank you.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 22, 2023 16:49:43 GMT
Hello dappy, welcome back.
I'm going to ignore your questions which are more than usually fatuous and ask you instead whether it isn't obvious by now that there is such a degree of ideological overlap between the Labour and Conservative parliamentary parties that it makes almost no difference which of the two is in power. To distinguish between the two is like attempting to argue that Coke is superior to Pepsi, or vice-versa. Apart from the 10% who inhabit the extreme fringe the two parties disagree on only minor points at the margin and focus their political efforts on personality contests and ritual shadow-boxing rather than on offering the electorate a genuine alternative.
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Post by Pacifico on May 22, 2023 17:01:15 GMT
As it is looking like the Tories will be decimated by currently following centrist/New Labour policies then to regain support they will have to return to being more like conventional conservatives.
Otherwise it is going to be a very long period in the wilderness.
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Post by Dan Dare on May 22, 2023 17:06:32 GMT
The problem for the Conservatives as a national party is that Central Office controls the candidate selection process and will not allow prospective MPs who do not fit the standard neo-liberal economic/socially progressive template to stand for office.
This is at odds with grass-roots sentiment which would very much rather the party moved in the direction you propose.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 22, 2023 17:20:13 GMT
As it is looking like the Tories will be decimated by currently following centrist/New Labour policies then to regain support they will have to return to being more like conventional conservatives. Otherwise it is going to be a very long period in the wilderness. I agree.
I do however find it odd that the the Tories are likely to be ousted in favour of Labour because, ironically, they're too much like Labour.
As Spock might say: Illogical, Captain.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 22, 2023 17:21:35 GMT
But then again, as Dan Dare says (and I've said repeatedly) why should I care when they're functionally identical anyway?
Meet the new boss - same as the old boss.
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Post by dappy on May 22, 2023 17:48:52 GMT
Are the current Tory and Labour Party the same - well clearly not but that is not the subject of this thread although I guess it would make a topic for another if posters wish to debate this again.
While a couple of posters have asserted that the Tories should move closer to their own (and probably their members) beliefs, none have provided an answer to what evidence they have to suggest that so doing would be electorally popular or answered the question as to whether if their views were electorally unpopular would they prefer a party serially losing espousing their views or being competitive with more centrist policies giving them only part of what they want.
Could I ask posters replying to concentrate on these two questions please.
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Post by Toreador on May 22, 2023 18:07:29 GMT
Hello folks. Hope you don't mind me popping back in hope that you can explain your thinking to me on one specific subject. (Grateful if this thread can avoid insults, abuse and petty squabbling please) The next election is perhaps 16 months away so could yet change but it currently looks most likely that Labour will take power - whether majority or minority. IF that happens it seems certain that the Tories would then engage in a battle for the direction the party should take next between the more centrist "one nationers" and the ideological low tax, low regulation socially conservative populists/UKIP/Trussist side. (lets not argue over terminology - even if you do not like the term can we for sake of this thread refer to that viewpoint as populist). Indeed with Braverman's speech to the conference last week and then leaked blow back about speeding tickets and non attendance at 3rd reading of immigration bills, it seems that fight is already well under way. To this centre/left poster, it feels like the Tories have much the same judgment to make as Labour did when they chose Corbyn as their leader. Do they move towards the views of its members who tend by definition to be further from the centre or do they seek to move back towards the centre ditching the populist anti woke rhetoric and related policies Now I am guessing that the majority on this forum would prefer to move towards the populist agenda and while I don't agree with those policies, I accept that is a perfectly valid aspiration. My question that I would welcome your views on are twofold 1) Do you believe that a move towards populism would be electorally popular. If so what is your evidence for that view (especially given that UKIP were wiped out in the recent local elections and Reform only won seats in two neighbouring wards in Derby) 2) IF populism was not a vote winner would you regardless prefer the Tories to advocate those policies even if that meant defeat or would you prefer a more centrist party which gave you some but not all of what you wanted after the say 2029 election Thank you. You've done it again, Dappy, suddenly turned up asking questions but not providing any of your own views. Do you hold this board in high esteem for members' political views, are you researching for a political part or are you merely wanting to be educated? |
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Post by Toreador on May 22, 2023 18:10:34 GMT
Are the current Tory and Labour Party the same - well clearly not but that is not the subject of this thread although I guess it would make a topic for another if posters wish to debate this again. While a couple of posters have asserted that the Tories should move closer to their own (and probably their members) beliefs, none have provided an answer to what evidence they have to suggest that so doing would be electorally popular or answered the question as to whether if their views were electorally unpopular would they prefer a party serially losing espousing their views or being competitive with more centrist policies giving them only part of what they want. Could I ask posters replying to concentrate on these two questions please.....and lo and behold, Dappy shows himself up as the supercilious schoolmaster type. Dan nailed you. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 22, 2023 18:28:36 GMT
Are the current Tory and Labour Party the same - well clearly not but that is not the subject of this thread although I guess it would make a topic for another if posters wish to debate this again. While a couple of posters have asserted that the Tories should move closer to their own (and probably their members) beliefs, none have provided an answer to what evidence they have to suggest that so doing would be electorally popular or answered the question as to whether if their views were electorally unpopular would they prefer a party serially losing espousing their views or being competitive with more centrist policies giving them only part of what they want. Could I ask posters replying to concentrate on these two questions please. No.
You see, your problem is that your questions, as usual, pre-suppose certain conditions which, as usual, may or may not exist in reality.
You then ask for empirical proof to the contrary when you've provided no empirical proof of your initial assumption.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2023 18:57:08 GMT
Hello folks. Hope you don't mind me popping back in hope that you can explain your thinking to me on one specific subject. (Grateful if this thread can avoid insults, abuse and petty squabbling please) The next election is perhaps 16 months away so could yet change but it currently looks most likely that Labour will take power - whether majority or minority. IF that happens it seems certain that the Tories would then engage in a battle for the direction the party should take next between the more centrist "one nationers" and the ideological low tax, low regulation socially conservative populists/UKIP/Trussist side. (lets not argue over terminology - even if you do not like the term can we for sake of this thread refer to that viewpoint as populist). Indeed with Braverman's speech to the conference last week and then leaked blow back about speeding tickets and non attendance at 3rd reading of immigration bills, it seems that fight is already well under way. To this centre/left poster, it feels like the Tories have much the same judgment to make as Labour did when they chose Corbyn as their leader. Do they move towards the views of its members who tend by definition to be further from the centre or do they seek to move back towards the centre ditching the populist anti woke rhetoric and related policies Now I am guessing that the majority on this forum would prefer to move towards the populist agenda and while I don't agree with those policies, I accept that is a perfectly valid aspiration. My question that I would welcome your views on are twofold 1) Do you believe that a move towards populism would be electorally popular. If so what is your evidence for that view (especially given that UKIP were wiped out in the recent local elections and Reform only won seats in two neighbouring wards in Derby) 2) IF populism was not a vote winner would you regardless prefer the Tories to advocate those policies even if that meant defeat or would you prefer a more centrist party which gave you some but not all of what you wanted after the say 2029 election Thank you. In some previous elections, particularly the last European election we took part in, the populist party was created at the very last minute and was immensely popular. Perhaps the populist party for the next general election has not emerged fully, or some of the heavy hitters have not declared themselves to be a part of it. I don't care what the Tories or Labour do, they are dead to me. A new populist party needs to emerge. The Tories feared UKIP, they feared the Brexit party at the last election and they'll fear either Reform or Reclaim, whichever becomes prominent. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 22, 2023 19:02:27 GMT
Anyway Dapster, how was your sojourn in the hinterworld? Perhaps not to your liking?
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Post by Toreador on May 22, 2023 19:07:53 GMT
Anyway Dapster, how was your sojourn in the hinterworld? Perhaps not to your liking? Barred from several sites for being boring. :@ |
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Post by Orac on May 22, 2023 19:20:34 GMT
This is just like the good old days. I knew Dappy would return
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Post by Toreador on May 22, 2023 20:10:23 GMT
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