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Post by andrewbrown on May 22, 2023 20:27:20 GMT
The problem is that the direction of the Tory membership and the public is vast. I think the Liz Truss experience showed that. I wish the GE had happened during this time. There'd be about 100 Tory MPs left.
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Post by Pacifico on May 22, 2023 21:56:20 GMT
Are the current Tory and Labour Party the same - well clearly not but that is not the subject of this thread although I guess it would make a topic for another if posters wish to debate this again. While a couple of posters have asserted that the Tories should move closer to their own (and probably their members) beliefs, none have provided an answer to what evidence they have to suggest that so doing would be electorally popular I would have thought it obvious. Currently the Tories are struggling for support because they are following centrist/New Labour policies - their core support is staying at home. They are not going to regain that support by more of the same left-wing policies that we have seen for the past 13 years. |
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Post by see2 on May 23, 2023 5:56:34 GMT
Hello dappy, welcome back. I'm going to ignore your questions which are more than usually fatuous and ask you instead whether it isn't obvious by now that there is such a degree of ideological overlap between the Labour and Conservative parliamentary parties that it makes almost no difference which of the two is in power. To distinguish between the two is like attempting to argue that Coke is superior to Pepsi, or vice-versa. Apart from the 10% who inhabit the extreme fringe the two parties disagree on only minor points at the margin and focus their political efforts on personality contests and ritual shadow-boxing rather than on offering the electorate a genuine alternative. IMO the only reason the Tories are anything like a centrist party over the last decade is the fact that the population is being hit hard financially by circumstances outside of the governments control, if the government had taken a hard line Tory approach over this period they recognise they would likely be wiped out at the next election. As soon as things return to anything like normal, so the basic DNA of the Tory party would return to the normal position of taking care of the wealthy. |
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Post by dappy on May 23, 2023 8:36:03 GMT
Are the current Tory and Labour Party the same - well clearly not but that is not the subject of this thread although I guess it would make a topic for another if posters wish to debate this again. While a couple of posters have asserted that the Tories should move closer to their own (and probably their members) beliefs, none have provided an answer to what evidence they have to suggest that so doing would be electorally popular I would have thought it obvious. Currently the Tories are struggling for support because they are following centrist/New Labour policies - their core support is staying at home. They are not going to regain that support by more of the same left-wing policies that we have seen for the past 13 years. Thank you for at least engaging in a sensible conversation Pacifico. It is not hard to see the sort of forum most posters and worse moderators seem to desire. The limitations of online are evident as I would love to look you in the eye and ask if you were serious. You would presumably agree that a move further to the right would alienate some of the existing support. You seem to be saying that you believe there is a huge well of support currently not voting who would be energised to vote if that happened. How do you form that conclusion? Surely if they existed by now they would be voting for Reform or Reclaim or UKIP or Heritage or one of the plethora of "populist" parties yet their support is minimal (combined national councillors in just two adjacent wards in Derby) and the Tory polls when Truss took over would have leapt rather than collapsed. Is that really your belief or just wishful thinking. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on May 23, 2023 9:02:30 GMT
..."populist" parties yet their support is minimal... Not really populist then are they. |
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Post by Toreador on May 23, 2023 9:29:26 GMT
I would have thought it obvious. Currently the Tories are struggling for support because they are following centrist/New Labour policies - their core support is staying at home. They are not going to regain that support by more of the same left-wing policies that we have seen for the past 13 years. Thank you for at least engaging in a sensible conversation Pacifico. It is not hard to see the sort of forum most posters and worse moderators seem to desire. The limitations of online are evident as I would love to look you in the eye and ask if you were serious. You would presumably agree that a move further to the right would alienate some of the existing support. You seem to be saying that you believe there is a huge well of support currently not voting who would be energised to vote if that happened. How do you form that conclusion? Surely if they existed by now they would be voting for Reform or Reclaim or UKIP or Heritage or one of the plethora of "populist" parties yet their support is minimal (combined national councillors in just two adjacent wards in Derby) and the Tory polls when Truss took over would have leapt rather than collapsed. Is that really your belief or just wishful thinking. More questions, Dappy, ffs change the record if you know how. This is a forum, not an inquisition for you to parade your lack of political nous and superciliousness. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 23, 2023 10:44:20 GMT
I would have thought it obvious. Currently the Tories are struggling for support because they are following centrist/New Labour policies - their core support is staying at home. They are not going to regain that support by more of the same left-wing policies that we have seen for the past 13 years. Thank you for at least engaging in a sensible conversation Pacifico. It is not hard to see the sort of forum most posters and worse moderators seem to desire. The limitations of online are evident as I would love to look you in the eye and ask if you were serious. You would presumably agree that a move further to the right would alienate some of the existing support. You seem to be saying that you believe there is a huge well of support currently not voting who would be energised to vote if that happened. How do you form that conclusion? Surely if they existed by now they would be voting for Reform or Reclaim or UKIP or Heritage or one of the plethora of "populist" parties yet their support is minimal (combined national councillors in just two adjacent wards in Derby) and the Tory polls when Truss took over would have leapt rather than collapsed. Is that really your belief or just wishful thinking. I'm unaware of any Tory supporter who wants what the current Tory Government are providing. The highest taxation, public spending and immigration since WW2 is not what any of them voted for. If you do want Labour policies like that then you may as well vote for Starmer and the Labour Party - there is no future for the Conservative party if they keep trying to be more left-wing than Labour. |
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Post by Dan Dare on May 23, 2023 11:40:20 GMT
Curious that no-one has brought the ethnic composition of the Tory leadership as an electoral asset (or liability).
Is the GBP really ready to vote in a party in which the key positions are occupied by persons 'of migration background'? Bear in mind that all of them owe their current elevated status to internal party politicking rather than as a function of the public's warm regard.
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Post by dappy on May 23, 2023 11:45:34 GMT
Not sure I quite understand your post Pacifico. You seem to have made no mention of why you thin there are huge numbers of Tory voters who would vote for a more "populist" party but currently are not voting for either the Tories or the existing smaller populist policies. Have to say that feels unlikely to me.
If I do understand you correctly you are suggesting that a shift to perhaps more Trussian policies would not alienate any existing Tory voters. That seems an odd conclusion to make. Which significant public spending cuts do you think would gain universal support amongst current Tory voters?
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Post by Red Rackham on May 23, 2023 11:57:12 GMT
Hello dappy, welcome back. I'm going to ignore your questions which are more than usually fatuous and ask you instead whether it isn't obvious by now that there is such a degree of ideological overlap between the Labour and Conservative parliamentary parties that it makes almost no difference which of the two is in power. To distinguish between the two is like attempting to argue that Coke is superior to Pepsi, or vice-versa. Apart from the 10% who inhabit the extreme fringe the two parties disagree on only minor points at the margin and focus their political efforts on personality contests and ritual shadow-boxing rather than on offering the electorate a genuine alternative. IMO the only reason the Tories are anything like a centrist party over the last decade is the fact that the population is being hit hard financially by circumstances outside of the governments control, if the government had taken a hard line Tory approach over this period they recognise they would likely be wiped out at the next election. As soon as things return to anything like normal, so the basic DNA of the Tory party would return to the normal position of taking care of the wealthy. You obviously haven't of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory. During her tenure as prime minister we had record unemployment, record interest rates, and record home repossessions. She was elected in 1979 and spent the next eleven years in office becoming the longest serving prime minister of the 20th century. In spite of the economic uncertainties of the 1980's she remained a centre right Conservative and won landslide elections. The biggest problem the modern conservative party has, is the fact that it isn't very Conservative. Sunak may find that if he moved the party back to it's more traditional centre right ground it would pay dividends. |
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Post by dappy on May 23, 2023 13:49:26 GMT
I get you want the Tory part to move towards your political beliefs Red. That's understandable.
The question I started this thread with was to try to understand why you think that would make the Tory party more electable. Clearly such a move would alienate some of its current support, so I suppose you and Pacifico must think there is a bigger well of support wanting such policies not currently voting Tory. But if they exist that support is not currently voting Reform UKIP or any of the other similar parties and when Truss took power with much of the policies you presumably want, Tory support slumped. It is hard to understand how you form your conclusion apart from the old I want it to be true therefore it must be true logic.
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Post by patman post on May 23, 2023 14:50:52 GMT
You obviously haven't of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory. During her tenure as prime minister we had record unemployment, record interest rates, and record home repossessions. She was elected in 1979 and spent the next eleven years in office becoming the longest serving prime minister of the 20th century. In spite of the economic uncertainties of the 1980's she remained a centre right Conservative and won landslide elections. The biggest problem the modern conservative party has, is the fact that it isn't very Conservative. Sunak may find that if he moved the party back to it's more traditional centre right ground it would pay dividends. Thatcher had a strong personality and took her projects head on. Plus she had some capable and intelligent ministers.
She oversaw the quelling of trades union disruptions, modified and opted out of EEC demands and, towards the end when the public were tiring of her, she fought Argentina and won the Falklands war.
And all the while she forged and maintained useful relationships with other world leaders. Only Tony Blair and flash in the pan Boris Johnson, have reached her level of public approval.
Now, it seems to me, unless the current parties stop faffing around — mostly on minor problems and irrelevancies — find some strong characters who look like they're able to settle high-profile problems to fill the top jobs, the outcome of the general election will be decided by voters' negativity rather than confidence or optimism.
Predictions? UK politics is in such a mess at this minute I can see various options: a Tory wipe-out, or a narrow win for either Conservative or Labour, or a Lab-LibDem coalition...
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Post by Toreador on May 23, 2023 14:54:57 GMT
You obviously haven't of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory. During her tenure as prime minister we had record unemployment, record interest rates, and record home repossessions. She was elected in 1979 and spent the next eleven years in office becoming the longest serving prime minister of the 20th century. In spite of the economic uncertainties of the 1980's she remained a centre right Conservative and won landslide elections. The biggest problem the modern conservative party has, is the fact that it isn't very Conservative. Sunak may find that if he moved the party back to it's more traditional centre right ground it would pay dividends. Thatcher had a strong personality and took her projects head on. Plus she had some capable and intelligent ministers.
She oversaw the quelling of trades union disruptions, modified and opted out of EEC demands and, towards the end when the public were tiring of her, she fought Argentina and won the Falklands war.
And all the while she forged and maintained useful relationships with other world leaders. Only Tony Blair and flash in the pan Boris Johnson, have reached her level of public approval.
Now, it seems to me, unless the current parties stop faffing around — mostly on minor problems and irrelevancies — find some strong characters who look like they're able to settle high-profile problems to fill the top jobs, the outcome of the general election will be decided by voters' negativity rather than confidence or optimism.
Predictions? UK politics is in such a mess at this minute I can see various options: a Tory wipe-out, or a narrow win for either Conservative or Labour, or a Lab-LibDem coalition...
None of the mainstream parties have the calibre of people to do any job. |
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Post by Red Rackham on May 23, 2023 15:29:27 GMT
I get you want the Tory part to move towards your political beliefs Red. That's understandable. The question I started this thread with was to try to understand why you think that would make the Tory party more electable. Clearly such a move would alienate some of its current support, so I suppose you and Pacifico must think there is a bigger well of support wanting such policies not currently voting Tory. But if they exist that support is not currently voting Reform UKIP or any of the other similar parties and when Truss took power with much of the policies you presumably want, Tory support slumped. It is hard to understand how you form your conclusion apart from the old I want it to be true therefore it must be true logic. At the moment we have two centrist parties. Starmer has taken Labour closer to the centre in order to distance himself and the party from Corbyn, and the Tories have been moving inexorably away from the centre right for a decade. You would be hard pressed to squeeze a fag paper between Labour and Tory polices, I fail to see how this benefits the political process or democracy. The only effect it will have is to turn people off voting, I'm already hearing people say 'why bother, they're all the same'. And they're right. Sunak should take the Tories back to their traditional centre right position, one way or another this would give voters a clear choice. |
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Post by andrewbrown on May 23, 2023 15:33:36 GMT
I get you want the Tory part to move towards your political beliefs Red. That's understandable. The question I started this thread with was to try to understand why you think that would make the Tory party more electable. Clearly such a move would alienate some of its current support, so I suppose you and Pacifico must think there is a bigger well of support wanting such policies not currently voting Tory. But if they exist that support is not currently voting Reform UKIP or any of the other similar parties and when Truss took power with much of the policies you presumably want, Tory support slumped. It is hard to understand how you form your conclusion apart from the old I want it to be true therefore it must be true logic. At the moment we have two centrist parties. Starmer has taken Labour closer to the centre in order to distance himself and the party from Corbyn, and the Tories have been moving inexorably away from the centre right for a decade. You would be hard pressed to squeeze a fag paper between Labour and Tory polices, I fail to see how this benefits the political process or democracy. The only effect it will have is to turn people off voting, I'm already hearing people say 'why bother, they're all the same'. And they're right. Sunak should take the Tories back to their traditional centre right position, one way or another this would give voters a clear choice. But aren't the majority of the electorate in the middle? |
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