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Post by Red Rackham on May 23, 2023 15:38:56 GMT
At the moment we have two centrist parties. Starmer has taken Labour closer to the centre in order to distance himself and the party from Corbyn, and the Tories have been moving inexorably away from the centre right for a decade. You would be hard pressed to squeeze a fag paper between Labour and Tory polices, I fail to see how this benefits the political process or democracy. The only effect it will have is to turn people off voting, I'm already hearing people say 'why bother, they're all the same'. And they're right. Sunak should take the Tories back to their traditional centre right position, one way or another this would give voters a clear choice. But aren't the majority of the electorate in the middle? No I don't think so, but even if they were so what? We should still have a choice. If people don't want to vote for a centre right party then they wont. It's their choice, but it's a choice that at the moment we don't have. |
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Post by dappy on May 23, 2023 15:47:20 GMT
There are plenty of parties offering the policies you want, Red - Reform, Reclaim, UKIP, Heritage. Very few people vote for them.
Labour made the mistake of moving to where it's members wanted it to be rather than where the electorate wanted it to be with Corbyn and offering the electorate "a choice" and the electorate said "no thanks". They have now moved back towards the centre and the electorate now seem to be saying "maybe". You seem to be suggesting that the Tories repeat the same mistake.
Do you believe that a move further towards the so-called "populist" wing would be electorally successful (if so how on earth do you conclude that) or are you in fact saying that you don't care about winning elections, you just want your party to be ideologically sound as you see it.
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Post by Pacifico on May 23, 2023 16:45:05 GMT
Not sure I quite understand your post Pacifico. You seem to have made no mention of why you thin there are huge numbers of Tory voters who would vote for a more "populist" party but currently are not voting for either the Tories or the existing smaller populist policies. Have to say that feels unlikely to me. If I do understand you correctly you are suggesting that a shift to perhaps more Trussian policies would not alienate any existing Tory voters. That seems an odd conclusion to make. Which significant public spending cuts do you think would gain universal support amongst current Tory voters? Well everyone has an opinion - if you think the current left-wing strategy of the Tory Party is the recipe for electoral success then fine - personally I cannot see it, and the polls would tend to support my contention. |
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Post by Orac on May 23, 2023 18:10:10 GMT
At the moment we have two centrist parties. Starmer has taken Labour closer to the centre in order to distance himself and the party from Corbyn, and the Tories have been moving inexorably away from the centre right for a decade. You would be hard pressed to squeeze a fag paper between Labour and Tory polices, I fail to see how this benefits the political process or democracy. The only effect it will have is to turn people off voting, I'm already hearing people say 'why bother, they're all the same'. And they're right. Sunak should take the Tories back to their traditional centre right position, one way or another this would give voters a clear choice. But aren't the majority of the electorate in the middle? Theoretically yes - but the 'middle of politics' has been redefined by systematic BBC repetition. The median UK political position is left of daily express, but not that far left of it. Both political parties are now significantly left of the median position - which is probably quite unstable Many of the editorial positions held by the BBC or the Guardian are so minority they may as well be described as 'crackpot' or 'lunatic fringe' rather than merely 'left' |
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Post by dappy on May 23, 2023 19:36:20 GMT
The polls don’t support your argument though Pacifico. Tory ratings were already dire as the public tired of Johnson’s incompetence, corruption and lies. (I see yet more lies have been uncovered today). They then dropped even further as Truss, following the policies you advocate, trashed the economy and peoples mortgages. Since the Tories came a small way back towards the centre from Truss populism, their poll ratings have recovered although I suspect the baggage of Johnson and Truss and Sunaks weakness having to tolerate the likes of Braverman is surely too much to give them much chance of victory at the next election.
Your desire to say to the electorate either before or after the next election. “We’ve thought again and you know what Truss was right all along “ feels so silly that surely it would end I. Electoral disaster.
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Post by Pacifico on May 23, 2023 21:24:46 GMT
The polls don’t support your argument though Pacifico. Tory ratings were already dire as the public tired of Johnson’s incompetence, corruption and lies. (I see yet more lies have been uncovered today). They then dropped even further as Truss, following the policies you advocate, trashed the economy and peoples mortgages. Since the Tories came a small way back towards the centre from Truss populism, their poll ratings have recovered although I suspect the baggage of Johnson and Truss and Sunaks weakness having to tolerate the likes of Braverman is surely too much to give them much chance of victory at the next election. Your desire to say to the electorate either before or after the next election. “We’ve thought again and you know what Truss was right all along “ feels so silly that surely it would end I. Electoral disaster. No - you are totally wrong. What Tory supporters voted for in 2019 has not been delivered - what has been delivered is a raft of Labour Policies that even Corbyn would have dreamed of implementing on his best days. Hence that Tories hemorrhaging support at the locals. Until the Tories get back to implementing conservative policies they are not going to be successful. Look at what people actually vote for not what you think they vote for. |
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Post by andrewbrown on May 23, 2023 21:55:47 GMT
What Tory supporters voted for in 2019 has not been delivered I think this is where your reasoning has gone wrong. Not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. There were a lot of "borrowed" votes. Your thinking that these votes would return to a right wing party without A) Corbyn in the Labour Party, and B) Get Brexit Done seems a little absurd. |
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Post by see2 on May 23, 2023 21:57:48 GMT
IMO the only reason the Tories are anything like a centrist party over the last decade is the fact that the population is being hit hard financially by circumstances outside of the governments control, if the government had taken a hard line Tory approach over this period they recognise they would likely be wiped out at the next election. As soon as things return to anything like normal, so the basic DNA of the Tory party would return to the normal position of taking care of the wealthy. During her tenure as prime minister we had record unemployment, record interest rates, and record home repossessions. She was elected in 1979 and spent the next eleven years in office becoming the longest serving prime minister of the 20th century. In spite of the economic uncertainties of the 1980's she remained a centre right Conservative and won landslide elections. The biggest problem the modern conservative party has, is the fact that it isn't very Conservative. Sunak may find that if he moved the party back to it's more traditional centre right ground it would pay dividends. "You obviously haven't of Margaret Thatcher who was certainly a centre right Tory." That is probably the most ridiculous assertion of the decade. That "stocking footed fascist" was as hard right as it was possible without entering Fascist territory. She wasn't a personal friend of Pinochet for nothing and wouldn't have taken on his hard Right Neo Liberalism that no decent centre right government would entertain, if she was center right. Thatcher was an economic and a social disaster. You really do need a dep rethink. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 23, 2023 22:09:27 GMT
What Tory supporters voted for in 2019 has not been delivered I think this is where your reasoning has gone wrong. Not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. There were a lot of "borrowed" votes. Your thinking that these votes would return to a right wing party without A) Corbyn in the Labour Party, and B) Get Brexit Done seems a little absurd. No it's not absurd. At the last election Johnson got 43% of the vote - in the 2017 election May got 42% - in 2015 Cameron got 36%. Currently the Tories are polling at 25% - swathes of Tory supporters have abandoned the Party for one simple reason - they are not implementing conservative policies. Tory voters consistently vote for lower taxes, lower spending and lower immigration - all things promised in the last manifesto. Yet here we are with record taxes, record spending and record immigration - all policies advocated by Labour. |
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Post by andrewbrown on May 24, 2023 4:56:08 GMT
I think you may have missed my point - not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. You appear to have merged the two.
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Post by Toreador on May 24, 2023 5:52:38 GMT
I think you may have missed my point - not everyone who voted Tory in 2019 was a Tory supporter. You appear to have merged the two. Then ignore 2019 and look at 2016 and 2017. |
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Post by andrewbrown on May 24, 2023 6:22:12 GMT
2016 we didn't have a general election, so we have no idea on left / right distribution (in fact it appears that working class lefties got the leave vote over the line in the referendum).
2017 the Tories moved from Cameron to May and lost their majority.
I'm unsure of your point, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the general public (as opposed to Pacifico's use of "Tory Supporters") want a switch to the right.
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Post by andrewbrown on May 24, 2023 6:28:34 GMT
I agree that there are lots of Tory voters who are currently staying at home or voting away, but this is more of a protest against the chaos of Johnson and financial mismanagement of Truss, plus the immorality and incompetence of the last few years of government. This government was elected on a platform of "levelling up" but has seen an increase in inequality, and building 40 new hospitals, which was a lie anyway. What more right wing policies would forgive the government for their conduct of the last 3 years and win voters back?
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Post by jonksy on May 24, 2023 6:29:04 GMT
2016 we didn't have a general election, so we have no idea on left / right distribution (in fact it appears that working class lefties got the leave vote over the line in the referendum). 2017 the Tories moved from Cameron to May and lost their majority. I'm unsure of your point, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the general public (as opposed to Pacifico's use of "Tory Supporters") want a switch to the right. Your side lost sunshine. FFS move on man and stop whinging |
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Post by Toreador on May 24, 2023 6:33:26 GMT
2016 we didn't have a general election, so we have no idea on left / right distribution (in fact it appears that working class lefties got the leave vote over the line in the referendum). 2017 the Tories moved from Cameron to May and lost their majority. I'm unsure of your point, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence of the general public (as opposed to Pacifico's use of "Tory Supporters") want a switch to the right. Then sensibly assume it was a typo and meant 2015. |
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