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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 8:45:36 GMT
So Ed is in favour of PR because it gives greater visibility of the details of opinion. Referenda give even greater detail and visibility. but Eddie is not in favour of the results from them... Although I do totally believe that if the result had been different then Ed would have been lauding referendum results as the conformed will of the people..  Surely you are not suggesting that politicians like Ed are self serving exponents of politically motivated double standards are you? Whatever next. lol |
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Post by Vinny on May 9, 2023 8:47:59 GMT
There should eventually be another EU membership referendum, but not until 2036.
And by then the treaties will have changed enough that even the most die hard of Europhile cultists will have second thoughts.
They're already talking about expanding EU powers to healthcare, that means single market, competition, privatisations.
Not the sort of thing lefties like.
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 9:39:44 GMT
There should eventually be another EU membership referendum, but not until 2036. rubbish. There is no time limit on democracy. What the gripe is , if labour are elected on a promise to make brexit work , whatever that means , but implied that they are going to honour the brexit ref if elected , then if they take the uk back in ,. or give BRINO , that clearly is not democracy , and shows everything wrong with uk politics.
Told you before vinny you dont set arbitrary limits on democracy on personal wishes.
We have set rules on democracy , you vote in elections , parties offer manifestos they should implement , and the winner enacts it promises. Your own parliament has a set rule that no current parliament can bind a future parliament , and yet you personally wish to overturn that rule.
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 9:49:14 GMT
Yes, I agree I do support Starmer but only in the sense that he has got to be better than the Tories but I may be wrong. Labour did not try to overturn the ref they wanted a vote to confirm it, why is that so hard to understand. If you remember there was so much mis-information flying about from both sides that a confirmatory vote would have been sensible. You are using the language of hatred again when you call the opposition 'treacherous' that way leads to anarchy. How can you disrespect votes by calling for a vote?
hence my word tacitly. Your political outlook is so old fashined , and there are other options than red or blue torie.
lies. Spin . Labour
1. didnt want the public to have a vote in the first place. much to uk wide ridicule.
2. starmer and labour spent years trying to overturn a demcoratic vote to leave the EU. So much so they tries to piss on 62 % of labours 2017 constituenices who voted brexit the year before with predictable consequences.
You dont claim to be a democratic party ( lmfao) one minute , then throw the table up in the air when you lose the game of cards the next. Thats treachery to democracy.A fitting descritpion of labour and starmer.
by not implementing the first vote , and asking for a second that is clearly disrespecting the first initial vote , and lead to the ridicule labour deserved.
There is no other party in a position to get into power. It is a perfectly reasonable position to hold to not have a referendum in something that has damaged the country. Labour wanted the country to overturn the ref by allowing a confirmatory ref. You obviously believe a confirmatory ref would have resulted in remain? By which I can infer that remain just squeaked the win. |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 9:50:07 GMT
I didn't support Blair and I did vote for him but on the understanding that he was better than a Tory government to which I have been proved right. The genuine Conservatives did the right thing and abstained, where you believe you can try and distance yourself from your crimes against humanity with slimey words.
I was not in a position to abstain, he was in power. |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 9:50:42 GMT
Yes they will need a miracle. But did you not notice the rather large number of them who got seats Fishy Rishy (and if i’m being fair more the result of Hunt in No 11 who doesn’t give a shit how many starve or freeze) pissed up the wall last week Do you not see how the lib dems are the protest vote of choice for the tory supporter ? The fact that Labour only gained 500 of the more than 1000 seats the Tories lost whilst a minor party like the Lib Dems gained almost as many, all on an even lower turnout than usual suggests a number of things. One of them is that the extremely poor Tory performance is partly due to Tories not voting at all rather than actively voting for other parties, and there is the distinct likelihood that most of these will vote Tory in a general election. This of course means that the Labour lead, inadequate as it already is in terms of securing an absolute majority in a general election, is actually pretty soft and likely to shrink in a GE unless more people than at present are attracted to Labour by then. The level of support for the Lib Dems is also likely to have flattered them for similar reasons and due to Tory protest voters. Having said that, voting patterns do seem to have shown a larger degree of anti-Tory tactical voting than in recent years, and if this phenomenon is repeated in a General Election by anti-Tory voters, both Labour and the Lib Dems could profit from it. This would considerably boost the number of Lib Dem seats whilst increasing the number of Labour seats and increasing the chances of an overall Labour majority. The inherent paradox in this for the Lib Dems is that the greater the tactical voting the more seats they are likely to get but the less likely they are to wield real power because the chances are greater of the same phenomenon gifting Labour an absolute majority. The Lib Dems need to be winning seats where they are the main challengers to Labour to diminish the likelihood of a Labour majority whilst enhancing their own success. Although the possibility of this occurring was suggested by the results in some areas, there was little sign of it occurring in many other places. Demographics. |
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 9:56:55 GMT
hence my word tacitly. Your political outlook is so old fashined , and there are other options than red or blue torie.
lies. Spin . Labour
1. didnt want the public to have a vote in the first place. much to uk wide ridicule.
2. starmer and labour spent years trying to overturn a demcoratic vote to leave the EU. So much so they tries to piss on 62 % of labours 2017 constituenices who voted brexit the year before with predictable consequences.
You dont claim to be a democratic party ( lmfao) one minute , then throw the table up in the air when you lose the game of cards the next. Thats treachery to democracy.A fitting descritpion of labour and starmer.
by not implementing the first vote , and asking for a second that is clearly disrespecting the first initial vote , and lead to the ridicule labour deserved.
There is no other party in a position to get into power. It is a perfectly reasonable position to hold to not have a referendum in something that has damaged the country. Labour wanted the country to overturn the ref by allowing a confirmatory ref. You obviously believe a confirmatory ref would have resulted in remain? By which I can infer that remain just squeaked the win. eh?
Thats the whole point in discussion. The farce of the uk politics today , where the old two party system of years gone by no longer works. We have a one party uk state now , with stamrer offering the same/a fags paper width in policy to the tories.
Saying vote red tory , to get blue tory out , is completely comical and zany when both are offering the exact same thing.
you can repeat this forevermore , but that isnt demcoracy , and clearly the public werent fooled by labour and starmers bullshit as they rejected it by a landslide.
Did it sink it yet red , that you lost in 2019 offering this bullshit to a public clearly more clued up than labour hoped?
when the pro european liberal democrats were calling on labour to have some guts and stand up for europe in a vote , clearly everyone thought labour were spineless cowards, hence why cameron yet again beat milliband and labour over theri cowardice to hold a referendum.
im a scottish pro european remainer. I voted remain in 2016. I did not support labours anti democratic stance , voted against labour as always , and would not have taken part in labours anti democratic farce if they were elected.
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 9:57:29 GMT
The fact that Labour only gained 500 of the more than 1000 seats the Tories lost whilst a minor party like the Lib Dems gained almost as many, all on an even lower turnout than usual suggests a number of things. One of them is that the extremely poor Tory performance is partly due to Tories not voting at all rather than actively voting for other parties, and there is the distinct likelihood that most of these will vote Tory in a general election. This of course means that the Labour lead, inadequate as it already is in terms of securing an absolute majority in a general election, is actually pretty soft and likely to shrink in a GE unless more people than at present are attracted to Labour by then. The level of support for the Lib Dems is also likely to have flattered them for similar reasons and due to Tory protest voters. Having said that, voting patterns do seem to have shown a larger degree of anti-Tory tactical voting than in recent years, and if this phenomenon is repeated in a General Election by anti-Tory voters, both Labour and the Lib Dems could profit from it. This would considerably boost the number of Lib Dem seats whilst increasing the number of Labour seats and increasing the chances of an overall Labour majority. The inherent paradox in this for the Lib Dems is that the greater the tactical voting the more seats they are likely to get but the less likely they are to wield real power because the chances are greater of the same phenomenon gifting Labour an absolute majority. The Lib Dems need to be winning seats where they are the main challengers to Labour to diminish the likelihood of a Labour majority whilst enhancing their own success. Although the possibility of this occurring was suggested by the results in some areas, there was little sign of it occurring in many other places. Demographics. ...are against labour...... |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 10:03:49 GMT
The genuine Conservatives did the right thing and abstained, where you believe you can try and distance yourself from your crimes against humanity with slimey words.
I was not in a position to abstain, he was in power. As per usual you make no sense and seem to just post for the sake of it. However, since you're happily unaware I will point out that the Conservatives are in power, yet most chose to abstain rather than vote for a fraud. The cycle must end. |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 10:39:26 GMT
There should eventually be another EU membership referendum, but not until 2036. rubbish. There is no time limit on democracy. What the gripe is , if labour are elected on a promise to make brexit work , whatever that means , but implied that they are going to honour the brexit ref if elected , then if they take the uk back in ,. or give BRINO , that clearly is not democracy , and shows everything wrong with uk politics.
Told you before vinny you dont set arbitrary limits on democracy on personal wishes.
We have set rules on democracy , you vote in elections , parties offer manifestos they should implement , and the winner enacts it promises. Your own parliament has a set rule that no current parliament can bind a future parliament , and yet you personally wish to overturn that rule.
To put the point even more simply. If anyone stated during an election campaign that if elected they would negotiate to rejoin the EU, and actually won on that basis then they would have a mandate for that. There is, as you say, no time limit on democracy. But if they led us to believe they had no intention of rejoining, then went about trying to do it anyway if elected, they would have no mandate for that. But Starmer and his hero-worshippers tend to support such about turns when elected, invoking as justification "changed circumstances". It is curious that such "changed circumstances" never seem to be noticed until an election is safely out of the way though, isn't it?. Funny that. |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2023 10:46:15 GMT
There is no other party in a position to get into power. It is a perfectly reasonable position to hold to not have a referendum in something that has damaged the country. Labour wanted the country to overturn the ref by allowing a confirmatory ref. You obviously believe a confirmatory ref would have resulted in remain? By which I can infer that remain just squeaked the win. eh?
Thats the whole point in discussion. The farce of the uk politics today , where the old two party system of years gone by no longer works. We have a one party uk state now , with stamrer offering the same/a fags paper width in policy to the tories.
Saying vote red tory , to get blue tory out , is completely comical and zany when both are offering the exact same thing.
you can repeat this forevermore , but that isnt demcoracy , and clearly the public werent fooled by labour and starmers bullshit as they rejected it by a landslide.
Did it sink it yet red , that you lost in 2019 offering this bullshit to a public clearly more clued up than labour hoped?
when the pro european liberal democrats were calling on labour to have some guts and stand up for europe in a vote , clearly everyone thought labour were spineless cowards, hence why cameron yet again beat milliband and labour over theri cowardice to hold a referendum.
im a scottish pro european remainer. I voted remain in 2016. I did not support labours anti democratic stance , voted against labour as always , and would not have taken part in labours anti democratic farce if they were elected.
Asking the voters is the pinnacle of democracy that's how we elect a parliament. Voting is not anti democratic. |
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 10:46:25 GMT
rubbish. There is no time limit on democracy. What the gripe is , if labour are elected on a promise to make brexit work , whatever that means , but implied that they are going to honour the brexit ref if elected , then if they take the uk back in ,. or give BRINO , that clearly is not democracy , and shows everything wrong with uk politics.
Told you before vinny you dont set arbitrary limits on democracy on personal wishes.
We have set rules on democracy , you vote in elections , parties offer manifestos they should implement , and the winner enacts it promises. Your own parliament has a set rule that no current parliament can bind a future parliament , and yet you personally wish to overturn that rule.
To put the point even more simply. If anyone stated during an election campaign that if elected they would negotiate to rejoin the EU, and actually won on that basis then they would have a mandate for that. There is, as you say, no time limit on democracy. But if they led us to believe they had no intention of rejoining, then went about trying to do it if elected, they would have no mandate for that. But Starmer and his hero-worshippers tend to support such about turns when elected, invoking as justification "changed circumstances". succinctly put steve. How what passes for uk democracy works is inarguable , yet vinny red rum and see 2 , not the most credbile of posters at the best of times admittedly , try to spin democracy in their own weird and wonderfull little ways.
You could put brexit to bed by facing brexiters toe to toe , and if you won an election on a clear rejoin promise, it would be gone. By doing what starmer is doing , he is breathing new life into brexit , and as i said in 2019 by anti democratic means is turning brexit into a martyrs cause.
All these issues is part of the wider reasons uk politics are currently in meltdown , and the future looking bleak.
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 10:48:23 GMT
eh?
Thats the whole point in discussion. The farce of the uk politics today , where the old two party system of years gone by no longer works. We have a one party uk state now , with stamrer offering the same/a fags paper width in policy to the tories.
Saying vote red tory , to get blue tory out , is completely comical and zany when both are offering the exact same thing.
you can repeat this forevermore , but that isnt demcoracy , and clearly the public werent fooled by labour and starmers bullshit as they rejected it by a landslide.
Did it sink it yet red , that you lost in 2019 offering this bullshit to a public clearly more clued up than labour hoped?
when the pro european liberal democrats were calling on labour to have some guts and stand up for europe in a vote , clearly everyone thought labour were spineless cowards, hence why cameron yet again beat milliband and labour over theri cowardice to hold a referendum.
im a scottish pro european remainer. I voted remain in 2016. I did not support labours anti democratic stance , voted against labour as always , and would not have taken part in labours anti democratic farce if they were elected.
Asking the voters is the pinnacle of democracy that's how we elect a parliament. Voting is not anti democratic. its not and i havent claimed it anti democratic.
You hold a vote , then the winner has the result implemented , then you hold a new vote , and so on.
you dont re run votes everytime you lose.
re running votes because you dont like the result clearly is anti democratic , as the public informed labour in a landslide at the last ukge.
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Post by thomas on May 9, 2023 10:59:10 GMT
Labour majority on knife edge, says polling guru as Sunak faces no confidence vote
Analysis by polling guru Professor Sir John Curtice for the BBC found that if England’s local election results were replicated at a general election, it would leave Labour 14 seats short of the 326 needed for an overall majority.
However, the elections expert has revealed that a 12 per cent swing from the Tories to Labour seen in five key seats – indicative of the three-way battle ahead in many parts of the country – would hand Labour a slim majority.
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Post by borchester on May 9, 2023 11:26:45 GMT
Labour majority on knife edge, says polling guru as Sunak faces no confidence vote
Analysis by polling guru Professor Sir John Curtice for the BBC found that if England’s local election results were replicated at a general election, it would leave Labour 14 seats short of the 326 needed for an overall majority.
However, the elections expert has revealed that a 12 per cent swing from the Tories to Labour seen in five key seats – indicative of the three-way battle ahead in many parts of the country – would hand Labour a slim majority.
In my area local elections run on which party will do the best job of collecting the rubbish and is least inclined to dig up the roads.
I like Sir John, but how he hopes to extrapolate that to a general election is beyond me.
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