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Post by buccaneer on Jan 11, 2023 18:51:30 GMT
Do the boy scouts enact policy that effect the lives of everyday people. No. The EU is as much a political union as it is an economic one, why you would try and deceive, lie or convince anyone otherwise is only your guess. Now, try again. The policies affect those who choose to be members. Just like the EU. Please dont insult me. I don't see any reason to be acidic. Reading your posts, you've become quite acidic about the EU. Perhaps next time, you may want to come across a little less condescending when you compare the 'political' whims of the boy scouts to to the EU. |
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 18:54:33 GMT
Wiki as a source?  |
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 18:59:54 GMT
Not me that raised 'political union', blame the Buckster I pointed out the truth that this initiative is going nowhere just like I said when Vinny raised it on the old site. Anyone care to bet their right arm it goes through? Ok but your sentence “So while they call themselves a 'political union' for those who see English as their prime language it really isn’t “ suggests a smug pedantic semantic argument . As you are using this approach then what wording would satisfy you ? Quasi political ? Or maybe a more imaginative approach .political.ish? Do you think that the EU is merely a trading bloc and will remain so forever? Others might not agree . It's always been more than a 'trading bloc' it has never been a politically unified state. It's false to suppose it has to be either. It was buccaneer that raised in this thread my 'political union' comment from 5 years ago on a forum he claims to have had nothing to do with and I posted it then because I believe in the English language and where's there's doubt, the OED is the pre-eminent reference. The EU has some aspects of a political union in limited areas. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 11, 2023 19:29:18 GMT
I don't see any point in having the same discussions that took place at least 6 years ago, and which is of no concern anymore, liberally sprinkled by personal remarks.
Which seems to be the hallmark of this forum. It always results in antagonism and personal attacks.
Ii said my piece on this subject including that there can be no trade block without some politics both internal and external.
The point really is that the EU works closely together to find compromise. Proposed legislation is voted on by three elected bodies and opt outs can be negotiated.
Who the feck cares if the EU operates politically? I hope it does since every other trading body does. The USA and China are at it all the time and Russia has been using trade as a political lever for a year now.
I don't see any criticism towards them.
This must be the last place on the Internet discussing the same things for 6 or more years.
I'm off to try to find some current events. Don't even you generic get fed up posting the same things after 6 years?? Or is it all just a vehicle for insults and caustic comments?
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Post by Vinny on Jan 11, 2023 20:19:01 GMT
It's the goal of many a federalist to incrementally move the EU into being a superstate like the USA. In Valery Giscard D'Estaing's proposal it would have been turned into a United States of Europe.
They may be trying again to achieve this by incremental means.
If they do it democratically and people vote for that, fair enough.
All politicians need to be held in check by the ballot box.
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 21:24:48 GMT
It's the goal of many a federalist to incrementally move the EU into being a superstate like the USA. In Valery Giscard D'Estaing's proposal it would have been turned into a United States of Europe. They may be trying again to achieve this by incremental means. If they do it democratically and people vote for that, fair enough. All politicians need to be held in check by the ballot box. Yes it is the goal of that small minority. Ain't going to happen though |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 11, 2023 22:49:49 GMT
Well the UK won't have a say in whatever the EU decides to become.
We gave up that right 6 years ago.
Unfortunately there are still some who suck at the teat of the EU for justification of its rejection, like an adolescent who blames his mother for his rejection.
We don't need the constant rehash of reasons to vote Leave, especially when those reasons are more threadbare by the month.
Those people have made the foreseeable future of the UK far more difficult than it should have been. The EU today is rebalanced and making progress out of the Covid hole and are united in protecting Ukraine...NOT AS A POLITICAL UNIT but as sovereign decisions based on the centrally understood concept of a liberal democracy against tyranny on its borders.
Each country responds as it decides. Not under the edict of the EU.
And there aren't many united liberal democracies left in the world. Leaving its powerful influence was insanely foolish. The UK can never compete on any level with 27 advanced countries united in spirit and amity with the economic clout it has.
And now we have no control over what it decides to do but must follow its decisions if we want to trade with our biggest market.
We have sacrificed any control we had inside the EU. And the new CPTPP to which the UK has applied to join will also demand regulatory standards. And don't forget, the EU already has trade agreements with most of those potential countries and is negotiating anomalies between its agreements and the block's tariff regulations.
Where all this leaves the UK's Elizabethan dream of sovereignty is yet to be seen.
Frankly I trust European instinct over Far Eastern cultural instinct any day.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 11, 2023 23:00:22 GMT
Well the UK won't have a say in whatever the EU decides to become. We gave up that right 6 years ago. Unfortunately there are still some who suck at the teat of the EU for justification of its rejection, like an adolescent who blames his mother for his rejection. We don't need the constant rehash of reasons to vote Leave, especially when those reasons are more threadbare by the month. Those people have made the foreseeable future of the UK far more difficult than it should have been. The EU today is rebalanced and making progress out of the Covid hole and are united in protecting Ukraine...NOT AS A POLITICAL UNIT but as sovereign decisions based on the centrally understood concept of a liberal democracy against tyranny on its borders. Each country responds as it decides. Not under the edict of the EU. And there aren't many united liberal democracies left in the world. Leaving its powerful influence was insanely foolish. The UK can never compete on any level with 27 advanced countries united in spirit and amity with the economic clout it has. And now we have no control over what it decides to do but must follow its decisions if we want to trade with our biggest market. We have sacrificed any control we had inside the EU. And the new CPTPP to which the UK has applied to join will also demand regulatory standards. And don't forget, the EU already has trade agreements with most of those potential countries and is negotiating anomalies between its agreements and the block's tariff regulations. Where all this leaves the UK's Elizabethan dream of sovereignty is yet to be seen. Frankly I trust European instinct over Far Eastern cultural instinct any day. What bunk - when Ukraine were on their knees in the immediate aftermath of the invasion it was the UK that led the response in supplying weapons and support - the EU were too busy talking about appeasing Putin. And as for the bizarre complaint that we no longer have the ability to control what foreign countries do - well why should we? |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 11, 2023 23:28:40 GMT
It's the goal of many a federalist to incrementally move the EU into being a superstate like the USA. In Valery Giscard D'Estaing's proposal it would have been turned into a United States of Europe. They may be trying again to achieve this by incremental means. If they do it democratically and people vote for that, fair enough. All politicians need to be held in check by the ballot box. Yes it is the goal of that small minority. Ain't going to happen though Without the Tory veto a big stumbling block has been removed from the federalists path. I do not know what form they will mould it into. I just hope for their sake it is democratic. |
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 12, 2023 1:47:29 GMT
Well the UK won't have a say in whatever the EU decides to become. We gave up that right 6 years ago. Unfortunately there are still some who suck at the teat of the EU for justification of its rejection, like an adolescent who blames his mother for his rejection. We don't need the constant rehash of reasons to vote Leave, especially when those reasons are more threadbare by the month. Those people have made the foreseeable future of the UK far more difficult than it should have been. The EU today is rebalanced and making progress out of the Covid hole and are united in protecting Ukraine...NOT AS A POLITICAL UNIT but as sovereign decisions based on the centrally understood concept of a liberal democracy against tyranny on its borders. Each country responds as it decides. Not under the edict of the EU. And there aren't many united liberal democracies left in the world. Leaving its powerful influence was insanely foolish. The UK can never compete on any level with 27 advanced countries united in spirit and amity with the economic clout it has. And now we have no control over what it decides to do but must follow its decisions if we want to trade with our biggest market. We have sacrificed any control we had inside the EU. And the new CPTPP to which the UK has applied to join will also demand regulatory standards. And don't forget, the EU already has trade agreements with most of those potential countries and is negotiating anomalies between its agreements and the block's tariff regulations. Where all this leaves the UK's Elizabethan dream of sovereignty is yet to be seen. Frankly I trust European instinct over Far Eastern cultural instinct any day. What bunk - when Ukraine were on their knees in the immediate aftermath of the invasion it was the UK that led the response in supplying weapons and support - the EU were too busy talking about appeasing Putin. And as for the bizarre complaint that we no longer have the ability to control what foreign countries do - well why should we? Unbelievable isn't it. |
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Post by jonksy on Jan 12, 2023 5:57:42 GMT
What bunk - when Ukraine were on their knees in the immediate aftermath of the invasion it was the UK that led the response in supplying weapons and support - the EU were too busy talking about appeasing Putin. And as for the bizarre complaint that we no longer have the ability to control what foreign countries do - well why should we? Not to them it aint mate. And these are the twats who think they kow best...LOL LOL |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 12, 2023 9:34:53 GMT
Well at this point the discussion is about whether a trading block we have left is a political body or not. I asked what you mean by political and got no answer so in fact ulyou can't answer the thread. I suggested that any group of countries which trades as an alliance can avoid being political...again no reply. So since IMO it is pointless to pick over old bones, I suggested you look to the future. So since the UK has applied for and is waiting for acceptance into the CPTPP, I am asking whether it is any less political, since you seem to disapprove of the political aspects of the EU. www.iod.com/news/global-business/flying-the-flag-for-global-britain-how-valuable-is-cptpp-for-the-uk-really/#:~:text=The%20UK%20has%20acceded%20to,%2C%20Peru%2C%20Singapore%20and%20Vietnam. I repeat. Politics is baked into trade. Trade has ALWAYS been the bulldozer of international relations. On the other hand as i read it, the OP is about EU INTERNAL processes. So maybe we can return to what the thread is supposed to be about. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 12, 2023 9:55:59 GMT
I wonder which 154 said No. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 12, 2023 10:06:05 GMT
Nothing seems to have happened in the 7 months since that and with 27 countries each able to veto it then of course it's going nowhere. Interesting though that it shows that all those who said the European Parliament couldn't initiate things were wrong. Well it’s interesting that they voted to increase the power of the 27. Are you sure this was not a measure handed to them by the 27 appointed persons ? Because when I went over to the Brussels Parliament building admittedly 15 years ago it was made quite clear to me the MEPs voted on measures introduced by those 27 people and had absolutely NO mechanism to bring legislation into being through their own action as our MPs can through members bills. Yes I know the likelihood of one being successful without government backing is on a par with winning the euromillions but the fact is when I, at the age of 17, stood in the chamber of the House of Commons during the summer recess with my then MP and twenty or thirty odd other sixth formers about to get the vote, Ian Grist had the absolute right to initiate a Members Bill. When back in about 2004 I stood in a meeting room in the European Parliament at the invite of an MEP they were quite keen to make it known they had no such power then. I’m not sure what’s changed, the European a parliament is sod all to do with us these days and thank fuck that is so. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 12, 2023 10:09:18 GMT
I wonder which 154 said No. You can be pretty sure one was Hungary. The proposals seem moderate, sensible and fair to me. The final legislation will of course need lots of consultations and compromises before the final votes. For example a veto allows one country to control all the others. A QMV is usually around 66%, still far more than the +1 that passes in UK legislative process. Better coordination across health issues is IMO important when you have open borders. |
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