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Post by buccaneer on Jan 11, 2023 7:50:15 GMT
Nothing seems to have happened in the 7 months since that and with 27 countries each able to veto it then of course it's going nowhere. Interesting though that it shows that all those who said the European Parliament couldn't initiate things were wrong. Not as interesting when you claimed the EU wasn't a political union and was not hellbent on morphing into a federation. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 11, 2023 9:28:59 GMT
The EU most definitely is a political union, wants to be a federation, and was always designed to be one.
If they want to go down that route, they need to do it democratically with the people on side rather than the EU's advocates lying to the public and saying one thing then doing the opposite like ours were doing.
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 10:24:12 GMT
The EU most definitely is a political union, wants to be a federation, and was always designed to be one. If they want to go down that route, they need to do it democratically with the people on side rather than the EU's advocates lying to the public and saying one thing then doing the opposite like ours were doing. Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary it isn't, they say one would have to be:
"A relationship with a political basis; specifically a joining of two or more nations or other political entities under one government; an alliance between states, a federal union."So while they call themselves a 'political union' for those who see English as their prime language it really isn't. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2023 10:30:53 GMT
The EU most definitely is a political union, wants to be a federation, and was always designed to be one. If they want to go down that route, they need to do it democratically with the people on side rather than the EU's advocates lying to the public and saying one thing then doing the opposite like ours were doing. Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary it isn't, they say one would have to be:
"A relationship with a political basis; specifically a joining of two or more nations or other political entities under one government; an alliance between states, a federal union."So while they call themselves a 'political union' for those who see English as their prime language it really isn't. What do the French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Portuguese dictionaries say? |
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 10:36:38 GMT
Don't know, don't care I'm English and we're debating in the English language
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2023 10:40:06 GMT
Don't know, don't care I'm English and we're debating in the English language Ok. As you are trying to reduce this thread into a semantic argument, I thought you might like to try it in other European languages . |
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Post by Steve on Jan 11, 2023 10:41:57 GMT
Not me that raised 'political union', blame the Buckster
I pointed out the truth that this initiative is going nowhere just like I said when Vinny raised it on the old site.
Anyone care to bet their right arm it goes through?
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2023 10:51:45 GMT
Not me that raised 'political union', blame the Buckster I pointed out the truth that this initiative is going nowhere just like I said when Vinny raised it on the old site. Anyone care to bet their right arm it goes through? Ok but your sentence “So while they call themselves a 'political union' for those who see English as their prime language it really isn’t “ suggests a smug pedantic semantic argument . As you are using this approach then what wording would satisfy you ? Quasi political ? Or maybe a more imaginative approach .political.ish? Do you think that the EU is merely a trading bloc and will remain so forever? Others might not agree . |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 11, 2023 11:32:42 GMT
This conversation has got lost in itself.
The OP was about how the internal processes of the EU works.
Now it has morphed into whether the EU is or wants to be political presence among other political presences.
And nobody has defined "political".
It is an alliance of countries, all sovereign, which agrees to trade together for mutual and singular benefit.
Trade touches politics in areas such as embargoes or political pressure. It always has done.
The EU speaks with one international voice. It is represented as a union in the WTO and the UN where it has enhanced rights of representation. That is because it was set up in the Treaty of Rome that only liberal democracies can join.
It is also an alliance with deep cultural ties and shared history.
Now FFS go do something useful instead of arguing about how many fairies live at the bottom of the garden.
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 11, 2023 11:44:15 GMT
Not according to the Oxford English Dictionary it isn't, they say one would have to be:
"A relationship with a political basis; specifically a joining of two or more nations or other political entities under one government; an alliance between states, a federal union."So while they call themselves a 'political union' for those who see English as their prime language it really isn't. What do the French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Portuguese dictionaries say? The EU even describes itself as a political union as it enacts policy. Everyone knows this except the master of sophistry who makes a controversial claim for the sake of it, and has to stand by it to save face. I'm guessing "no serious poster" would endorse the claims made by Steve. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 11, 2023 12:27:04 GMT
What do the French, German, Spanish, Italian, Dutch and Portuguese dictionaries say? The EU even describes itself as a political union as it enacts policy. Everyone knows this except the master of sophistry who makes a controversial claim for the sake of it, and has to stand by it to save face. I'm guessing "no serious poster" would endorse the claims made by Steve. So do the boy scouts, the local golf club, my choir and any registered group of people who meet for a purpose. Every assembly needs makes and enacts policy. Try again. |
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Post by Vinny on Jan 11, 2023 13:11:32 GMT
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Post by buccaneer on Jan 11, 2023 13:34:48 GMT
The EU even describes itself as a political union as it enacts policy. Everyone knows this except the master of sophistry who makes a controversial claim for the sake of it, and has to stand by it to save face. I'm guessing "no serious poster" would endorse the claims made by Steve. So do the boy scouts, the local golf club, my choir and any registered group of people who meet for a purpose. Every assembly needs makes and enacts policy. Try again. Do the boy scouts enact policy that effect the lives of everyday people. No. The EU is as much a political union as it is an economic one, why you would try and deceive, lie or convince anyone otherwise is only your guess. Now, try again. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 11, 2023 15:30:47 GMT
So do the boy scouts, the local golf club, my choir and any registered group of people who meet for a purpose. Every assembly needs makes and enacts policy. Try again. Do the boy scouts enact policy that effect the lives of everyday people. No. The EU is as much a political union as it is an economic one, why you would try and deceive, lie or convince anyone otherwise is only your guess. Now, try again. The policies affect those who choose to be members. Just like the EU. Please dont insult me. I don't see any reason to be acidic. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 11, 2023 16:28:10 GMT
Do the boy scouts enact policy that effect the lives of everyday people. No. The EU is as much a political union as it is an economic one, why you would try and deceive, lie or convince anyone otherwise is only your guess. Now, try again. The policies affect those who choose to be members. Just like the EU. Please dont insult me. I don't see any reason to be acidic. Therein lies the whole issue as regards choosing to be members. Those in the UK for 50 years had chosen not to be members at several junctures when they had the chance but were co-opted in as part of the nation. Every Boy Scout chooses to be a Boy Scout, every UK citizen does not choose to be a member of the EU yet were bound in equal measure by the laws of the EU. The critical point as ever was that the choices as regards membership by way of the parties was not a choice at all certainly in the later years as all wished to be members and it was only the threat of an anti membership party gaining ground that resulted in the referendum. One of the aspects of a democratic entity is that those elected as representatives are from the whole and they govern as right as being from the whole. Europe, much as people would like it to be, is not an homogenous whole so that democratic consensus is at best diluted and realistically lost. |
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