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Post by see2 on Jan 11, 2023 19:31:25 GMT
Perhaps you might consider not mentioning your feelings on New Labour and Tony Blair where they are not directly relevant to the subject. It must be tiresome for you to see Corbyn continuously referred to in the same way. I mention it whenever I feel it is relevant, as do others with Corbyn. But I am not any so called Corbynista in the sense that he is not the reason I joined the party nor the reason I left and I can acknowledge some of his flaws as a leader. People tend to assume that anyone on the left is some sort of Corbyn groupie. I am not. The problem between See 2 and I is not what I choose to discuss - I do not after all have the same problem with you and we manage to respect each other - but the abject failure of him to be able to understand where I am coming from as you seem to be able to do, and his insistence upon mislabelling me coupled with arrogance. This latter got my hackles up from the start. I think you would agree based upon your own experience with me that when people debate reasonably with me and acknowledge where I am coming from even if they disagree I tend to reciprocate. But on any politics forums I would tend to discuss those things I feel most strongly about and that includes what I see as the failings and betrayals of New Labour and Tony Blair. And my experience inside the party of the hostility and dirty tricks from such people have brought that into sharp focus for me. So apologies but it is going to be one of my main points of criticism for a while. But I talk about it because I feel I want to and because I think it is important. I don't do it to annoy you and apologise if it does Your first problem is that you do not have the capacity to understand just how closed minded you are when it comes to politics, and that I nailed you from the start. Your second problem is your apparent hatred of New Labour. You have every right to disagree with new Labour but posting lies and insults about New Labour, just because there is a possibility that Starmer might push the Lefties to one side and make some headway with NL style thinking, is not acceptable. I won't be replying to any more of your nonsense that you reply with to this post. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 11, 2023 19:34:19 GMT
In your opinion, as you ignore the point made. I'd like to see you prove your claim. I'd like to see you prove most of yours so there we are. That's just your escape route. I asked a question about a specific point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 20:23:45 GMT
I mention it whenever I feel it is relevant, as do others with Corbyn. But I am not any so called Corbynista in the sense that he is not the reason I joined the party nor the reason I left and I can acknowledge some of his flaws as a leader. People tend to assume that anyone on the left is some sort of Corbyn groupie. I am not. The problem between See 2 and I is not what I choose to discuss - I do not after all have the same problem with you and we manage to respect each other - but the abject failure of him to be able to understand where I am coming from as you seem to be able to do, and his insistence upon mislabelling me coupled with arrogance. This latter got my hackles up from the start. I think you would agree based upon your own experience with me that when people debate reasonably with me and acknowledge where I am coming from even if they disagree I tend to reciprocate. But on any politics forums I would tend to discuss those things I feel most strongly about and that includes what I see as the failings and betrayals of New Labour and Tony Blair. And my experience inside the party of the hostility and dirty tricks from such people have brought that into sharp focus for me. So apologies but it is going to be one of my main points of criticism for a while. But I talk about it because I feel I want to and because I think it is important. I don't do it to annoy you and apologise if it does Fair do's. Perhaps you could try to depersonalise your criticism. Criticise New labour without calling personal names "Your hero worship of New Labour is quite a spectacle to behold" That aside I would like to learn more about your position. Not Corbynite but very left wing. Interesting stuff among the crappy name calling that pervades the forum. Let's just say that by his arrogant hostility and wilful mislabelling he brings out the worst in me. I have a tendency to reciprocate which is why I debate so reasonably with those who do the same with me, yet can be so pugnacious with those who don't. But enough about that and him. I think to call me very left wing is an exaggeration. In policy terms I fully support Labour's 2017 manifesto which I regard as a very modest, social democratic, document. Much of it's content was the kind of stuff I had believed in for decades. It was one of those relatively rare moments when someone who'd felt politically adrift noticed a party suddenly espousing everything I believed in. I believed in these things long before I had ever heard much of Corbyn. I supported Corbyn as he was the obvious guarantor of the 2017 agenda because at the local level as well as the national, the sound of Blairites and centrists condemning this as "far left" and mislabelling people like me as "trots" for believing in something akin to the Nordic model was deafening. They fought tooth and nail against everything I believed in. The dirty tricks I saw them deploy at the local level and the double standards of the disciplinary hierarchy would require a separate thread of its own so I won't detail it here. Suffice it to say that whilst in the same party as me they operated as mortal enemies to all I believed in. Some upon standing down at MP level - eg Ian Austin - actually urged their constituents to vote Tory! This is where my strength of feeling about them comes from. I spent five years in the party seeing how they operated and thought. At times I canvassed alongside them and regularly attended the same meetings as them. But it was not really about Corbyn at all for me beyond him being the guarantor of what I believed in against the Blairites. I can see he was a leader with many flaws, reluctant to be tough, reluctant to fight back, too tactically inflexible, with too much baggage that could all too easily be weaponised against him. The tabloids had a field day with the latter, resulting in the tabloid reading elements being convinced he was both a friend of terrorists and a friend of Russia, not to mention an antisemite and a commie. It was too easy to do that with Corbyn, and instead of fighting back robustly he adopted an air of contemptuously ignoring it, which just let it all become established fact in the minds of many. He also had a tendency to be persuaded by the last person who spoke to him in areas in which he himself did not feel strongly. This included the EU, with much of the policy agenda of the 2019 election re Brexit and the EU being allowed to be set by Starmer. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 20:31:09 GMT
I'd like to see you prove most of yours so there we are. That's just your escape route. I asked a question about a specific point. Are you seriously trying to suggest that Brexit did not play a big part in the scale of Labour's 2019 defeat? Honestly? |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2023 21:33:27 GMT
Fair do's. Perhaps you could try to depersonalise your criticism. Criticise New labour without calling personal names "Your hero worship of New Labour is quite a spectacle to behold" That aside I would like to learn more about your position. Not Corbynite but very left wing. Interesting stuff among the crappy name calling that pervades the forum. Let's just say that by his arrogant hostility and wilful mislabelling he brings out the worst in me. I have a tendency to reciprocate which is why I debate so reasonably with those who do the same with me, yet can be so pugnacious with those who don't. But enough about that and him. I think to call me very left wing is an exaggeration. In policy terms I fully support Labour's 2017 manifesto which I regard as a very modest, social democratic, document. Much of it's content was the kind of stuff I had believed in for decades. It was one of those relatively rare moments when someone who'd felt politically adrift noticed a party suddenly espousing everything I believed in. I believed in these things long before I had ever heard much of Corbyn. I supported Corbyn as he was the obvious guarantor of the 2017 agenda because at the local level as well as the national, the sound of Blairites and centrists condemning this as "far left" and mislabelling people like me as "trots" for believing in something akin to the Nordic model was deafening. They fought tooth and nail against everything I believed in. The dirty tricks I saw them deploy at the local level and the double standards of the disciplinary hierarchy would require a separate thread of its own so I won't detail it here. Suffice it to say that whilst in the same party as me they operated as mortal enemies to all I believed in. Some upon standing down at MP level - eg Ian Austin - actually urged their constituents to vote Tory! This is where my strength of feeling about them comes from. I spent five years in the party seeing how they operated and thought. At times I canvassed alongside them and regularly attended the same meetings as them. But it was not really about Corbyn at all for me beyond him being the guarantor of what I believed in against the Blairites. I can see he was a leader with many flaws, reluctant to be tough, reluctant to fight back, too tactically inflexible, with too much baggage that could all too easily be weaponised against him. The tabloids had a field day with the latter, resulting in the tabloid reading elements being convinced he was both a friend of terrorists and a friend of Russia, not to mention an antisemite and a commie. It was too easy to do that with Corbyn, and instead of fighting back robustly he adopted an air of contemptuously ignoring it, which just let it all become established fact in the minds of many. He also had a tendency to be persuaded by the last person who spoke to him in areas in which he himself did not feel strongly. This included the EU, with much of the policy agenda of the 2019 election re Brexit and the EU being allowed to be set by Starmer. I am going to sift through Labours 2017 manifesto before coming back to this post with you. I'll try to be quick but I still work and we're pretty busy so might be a couple of days. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 21:55:42 GMT
Let's just say that by his arrogant hostility and wilful mislabelling he brings out the worst in me. I have a tendency to reciprocate which is why I debate so reasonably with those who do the same with me, yet can be so pugnacious with those who don't. But enough about that and him. I think to call me very left wing is an exaggeration. In policy terms I fully support Labour's 2017 manifesto which I regard as a very modest, social democratic, document. Much of it's content was the kind of stuff I had believed in for decades. It was one of those relatively rare moments when someone who'd felt politically adrift noticed a party suddenly espousing everything I believed in. I believed in these things long before I had ever heard much of Corbyn. I supported Corbyn as he was the obvious guarantor of the 2017 agenda because at the local level as well as the national, the sound of Blairites and centrists condemning this as "far left" and mislabelling people like me as "trots" for believing in something akin to the Nordic model was deafening. They fought tooth and nail against everything I believed in. The dirty tricks I saw them deploy at the local level and the double standards of the disciplinary hierarchy would require a separate thread of its own so I won't detail it here. Suffice it to say that whilst in the same party as me they operated as mortal enemies to all I believed in. Some upon standing down at MP level - eg Ian Austin - actually urged their constituents to vote Tory! This is where my strength of feeling about them comes from. I spent five years in the party seeing how they operated and thought. At times I canvassed alongside them and regularly attended the same meetings as them. But it was not really about Corbyn at all for me beyond him being the guarantor of what I believed in against the Blairites. I can see he was a leader with many flaws, reluctant to be tough, reluctant to fight back, too tactically inflexible, with too much baggage that could all too easily be weaponised against him. The tabloids had a field day with the latter, resulting in the tabloid reading elements being convinced he was both a friend of terrorists and a friend of Russia, not to mention an antisemite and a commie. It was too easy to do that with Corbyn, and instead of fighting back robustly he adopted an air of contemptuously ignoring it, which just let it all become established fact in the minds of many. He also had a tendency to be persuaded by the last person who spoke to him in areas in which he himself did not feel strongly. This included the EU, with much of the policy agenda of the 2019 election re Brexit and the EU being allowed to be set by Starmer. I am going to sift through Labours 2017 manifesto before coming back to this post with you. I'll try to be quick but I still work and we're pretty busy so might be a couple of days. Fair enough. There are some costing issues with some of it that perhaps need to have been better addressed, but the broad direction of it in policy terms is in line with my own ideals. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2023 22:05:27 GMT
I mention it whenever I feel it is relevant, as do others with Corbyn. But I am not any so called Corbynista in the sense that he is not the reason I joined the party nor the reason I left and I can acknowledge some of his flaws as a leader. People tend to assume that anyone on the left is some sort of Corbyn groupie. I am not. The problem between See 2 and I is not what I choose to discuss - I do not after all have the same problem with you and we manage to respect each other - but the abject failure of him to be able to understand where I am coming from as you seem to be able to do, and his insistence upon mislabelling me coupled with arrogance. This latter got my hackles up from the start. I think you would agree based upon your own experience with me that when people debate reasonably with me and acknowledge where I am coming from even if they disagree I tend to reciprocate. But on any politics forums I would tend to discuss those things I feel most strongly about and that includes what I see as the failings and betrayals of New Labour and Tony Blair. And my experience inside the party of the hostility and dirty tricks from such people have brought that into sharp focus for me. So apologies but it is going to be one of my main points of criticism for a while. But I talk about it because I feel I want to and because I think it is important. I don't do it to annoy you and apologise if it does Your first problem is that you do not have the capacity to understand just how closed minded you are when it comes to politics, and that I nailed you from the start. Your second problem is your apparent hatred of New Labour. You have every right to disagree with new Labour but posting lies and insults about New Labour, just because there is a possibility that Starmer might push the Lefties to one side and make some headway with NL style thinking, is not acceptable. I won't be replying to any more of your nonsense that you reply with to this post. Don't worry. Your post is not worth responding to either. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 11, 2023 22:16:09 GMT
I mention it whenever I feel it is relevant, as do others with Corbyn. But I am not any so called Corbynista in the sense that he is not the reason I joined the party nor the reason I left and I can acknowledge some of his flaws as a leader. People tend to assume that anyone on the left is some sort of Corbyn groupie. I am not. The problem between See 2 and I is not what I choose to discuss - I do not after all have the same problem with you and we manage to respect each other - but the abject failure of him to be able to understand where I am coming from as you seem to be able to do, and his insistence upon mislabelling me coupled with arrogance. This latter got my hackles up from the start. I think you would agree based upon your own experience with me that when people debate reasonably with me and acknowledge where I am coming from even if they disagree I tend to reciprocate. But on any politics forums I would tend to discuss those things I feel most strongly about and that includes what I see as the failings and betrayals of New Labour and Tony Blair. And my experience inside the party of the hostility and dirty tricks from such people have brought that into sharp focus for me. So apologies but it is going to be one of my main points of criticism for a while. But I talk about it because I feel I want to and because I think it is important. I don't do it to annoy you and apologise if it does Fair do's. Perhaps you could try to depersonalise your criticism. Criticise New labour without calling personal names "Your hero worship of New Labour is quite a spectacle to behold" That aside I would like to learn more about your position. Not Corbynite but very left wing. Interesting stuff among the crappy name calling that pervades the forum. Not sure how old you are but srb7677 is hardly 'very left wing' - he is mainstream Socialist of the type that was in the majority in the 60's and 70's.  |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 21, 2023 18:13:56 GMT
This will kill off any chance of Sunak pulling a rabbit out of the hat at the next election..
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Post by Morgan on Jan 23, 2023 9:43:31 GMT
I wouldn't worry about the number of illegal immigrants coming here in small boats and in lorries etc. Once the civil war starts over ever decreasing and rocketing prices of food supplies the population will soon decrease again.
Always look on the bright side.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 23, 2023 11:30:05 GMT
Well illegal immigrants certainly dont have to worry about the rocketing prices of food (or energy come to that) - they are very toasty and well fed in their 4 star hotels..
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