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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 18:05:18 GMT
And you seem incapable of acknowledging that it has gotten a lot worse under the current administration and that after 13 years in power they cannot be absolved of all blame and responsibility, nor that 13 years is plenty of time to make reforms that can improve things. Any actions they have taken appear to have made things worse. Look not going round in circles.
I have more than explained why the Tories have their hands tied, and why they can't progress, if you want to fuzz it up, that's up to you.
As I said 13 years of Tories or a 113 years of Tories you can not undo legally binding contracts, that Blair/Labour set in stone.
It's like buying a house or a lease property that lease is legally binding until the end of term.
Blair/Labour gave GPs a Golden Ticket Contract, one that these immoral set of human being have used and abused ........... SHAME ON THEM.
Contracts have been changed via legislation before. After all didnt Blair do it as you have said? The basic point remains that when a government has been in power for 13 years it needs to take responsibility for all that is bad as well as anything that is good and not blame governments of more than 13 years ago. I mean if current governments can blame their predecessors for everything that is falling apart on their watch, when the power to change things resides with them, how far back should we go? Blame Attlee perhaps? Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of Lloyd George? Or Gladstone? Or perhaps the rot set in under King Henry VIII? Governments need to take charge and take responsibility, especially when they have been in power for 13 years. And their apologists need to stop blaming everyone else but them. If there is something wrong with contractual arrangements it is down to the government to do something about it. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 9, 2023 18:10:41 GMT
Perhaps one answer would be to make some hospitals autonomous. They could cooperate on essentials like purchases and staff wages and some services. That way, the best would survive and the less able could change the management if they were inefficient. Its a good idea but the problem comes when some hospitals start providing a different service to others - you then start to get complaints about postcode lotteries etc. Your proposal would work great if funding followed the patient but that would involve bringing in a European style health service which is unacceptable in the UK. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jan 9, 2023 18:13:08 GMT
Look not going round in circles.
I have more than explained why the Tories have their hands tied, and why they can't progress, if you want to fuzz it up, that's up to you.
As I said 13 years of Tories or a 113 years of Tories you can not undo legally binding contracts, that Blair/Labour set in stone.
It's like buying a house or a lease property that lease is legally binding until the end of term.
Blair/Labour gave GPs a Golden Ticket Contract, one that these immoral set of human being have used and abused ........... SHAME ON THEM.
Contracts have been changed via legislation before. After all didnt Blair do it as you have said? The basic point remains that when a government has been in power for 13 years it needs to take responsibility for all that is bad as well as anything that is good and not blame governments of more than 13 years ago. I mean if current governments can blame their predecessors for everything that is falling apart on their watch, when the power to change things resides with them, how far back should we go? Blame Attlee perhaps? Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of Lloyd George? Or Gladstone? Or perhaps the rot set in under King Henry VIII? Governments need to take charge and take responsibility, especially when they have been in power for 13 years. And their apologists need to stop blaming everyone else but them. If there is something wrong with contractual arrangements it is down to the government to do something about it. Altering a GP contract would be as equally unpopular as altering the terms and conditions of a lease property.
They are 'legally' binding in name.
How would you like it if you bought a property with a 1000 year lease that you legally signed up to, only for another government to come along and say ... No we don't approve of that, we are going to change it.
GOOD LUCK.
YOU'LL FUCKIN NEED IT.
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 9, 2023 18:15:07 GMT
Look not going round in circles.
I have more than explained why the Tories have their hands tied, and why they can't progress, if you want to fuzz it up, that's up to you.
As I said 13 years of Tories or a 113 years of Tories you can not undo legally binding contracts, that Blair/Labour set in stone.
It's like buying a house or a lease property that lease is legally binding until the end of term.
Blair/Labour gave GPs a Golden Ticket Contract, one that these immoral set of human being have used and abused ........... SHAME ON THEM.
Contracts have been changed via legislation before. After all didnt Blair do it as you have said? The basic point remains that when a government has been in power for 13 years it needs to take responsibility for all that is bad as well as anything that is good and not blame governments of more than 13 years ago. I mean if current governments can blame their predecessors for everything that is falling apart on their watch, when the power to change things resides with them, how far back should we go? Blame Attlee perhaps? Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of Lloyd George? Or Gladstone? Or perhaps the rot set in under King Henry VIII? Governments need to take charge and take responsibility, especially when they have been in power for 13 years. And their apologists need to stop blaming everyone else but them. If there is something wrong with contractual arrangements it is down to the government to do something about it. I take your point and to an extent agree with it but there is only so much a Government (any Government) can do if the basic model is flawed. I have lived through umpteen NHS 'reforms' over the decades (by both parties) and to me the service has just continued to get worse. I think we all just have to accept that we are only ever going to get a second rate service. |
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2023 19:08:04 GMT
Contracts have been changed via legislation before. After all didnt Blair do it as you have said? The basic point remains that when a government has been in power for 13 years it needs to take responsibility for all that is bad as well as anything that is good and not blame governments of more than 13 years ago. I mean if current governments can blame their predecessors for everything that is falling apart on their watch, when the power to change things resides with them, how far back should we go? Blame Attlee perhaps? Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of Lloyd George? Or Gladstone? Or perhaps the rot set in under King Henry VIII? Governments need to take charge and take responsibility, especially when they have been in power for 13 years. And their apologists need to stop blaming everyone else but them. If there is something wrong with contractual arrangements it is down to the government to do something about it. I take your point and to an extent agree with it but there is only so much a Government (any Government) can do if the basic model is flawed. I have lived through umpteen NHS 'reforms' over the decades (by both parties) and to me the service has just continued to get worse. I think we all just have to accept that we are only ever going to get a second rate service. Well a valid discussion needs to be had about what needs to change going forwards. And the entire public need to be involved in that, not just a bunch of mostly out of touch Westminster politicians. Two things will raise public hackles though. Firstly, any mention of moving away from a free at the point of use model. And secondly, any mention of an insurance based system. Either would be a difficult sell to the masses. I just make that as an observation for now without expressing any opinion on my own preferences at this stage. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 9, 2023 19:34:41 GMT
The problems in the NHS would be solved by putting more money in to cover the increases in attendances. Don't matter which government. The difference is that Tory supporters all talk about efficiency savings while Labour supporters talk about tax rises. So it depends on which you believe. Well I believe what happens in the real world - Scotland has tax raising powers and can put more money into the NHS if it wishes. Yet its performance is no different. Yes, health care in Bolivia is terrible, so that means ours can't be better. 🙄 |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 9, 2023 19:37:37 GMT
Firstly, any government can legislate to change anything. And secondly, you cannot blame Labour for the fact that it has gotten so much worse under the Tories Labour have tied the hands of any successive government, including their own.
It has gotten much worse, because this government can not undo what Blair/Labour have done.
If the Tories want to legislate to change GP contracts they have to go through a LONG drawn out legal process, the GPs and Unions will be kicking and screaming all the way.
GPs are destroying the NHS, most GPs will not use the NHS service they will be private, which is typical double standard hypocrisy, as usual.
You can't get a face-to-face appointment with your GP because they are too busy raking it in with their private practice, or there is a good Netflix documentary like Wednesday that is on tv, then you wont get to see your GP ......... you can thank Blair/Labour for giving GPs the FREEDOM of choice without consequence.
Of course ALL the Blair family will have private medical insurance .......... LOL the good old DOUBLE STANDARD LABOUR GOVERNMENT ..
That is completely untrue. Elected government by its very nature cannot be tied to any contract. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 9, 2023 19:39:18 GMT
Contracts have been changed via legislation before. After all didnt Blair do it as you have said? The basic point remains that when a government has been in power for 13 years it needs to take responsibility for all that is bad as well as anything that is good and not blame governments of more than 13 years ago. I mean if current governments can blame their predecessors for everything that is falling apart on their watch, when the power to change things resides with them, how far back should we go? Blame Attlee perhaps? Maybe some of the blame can be laid at the door of Lloyd George? Or Gladstone? Or perhaps the rot set in under King Henry VIII? Governments need to take charge and take responsibility, especially when they have been in power for 13 years. And their apologists need to stop blaming everyone else but them. If there is something wrong with contractual arrangements it is down to the government to do something about it. Altering a GP contract would be as equally unpopular as altering the terms and conditions of a lease property.
They are 'legally' binding in name.
How would you like it if you bought a property with a 1000 year lease that you legally signed up to, only for another government to come along and say ... No we don't approve of that, we are going to change it.
GOOD LUCK.
YOU'LL FUCKIN NEED IT.
If the contract was written by a sitting government I wouldn't sign it as it would be worthless |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 9, 2023 22:26:23 GMT
Well I believe what happens in the real world - Scotland has tax raising powers and can put more money into the NHS if it wishes. Yet its performance is no different. Yes, health care in Bolivia is terrible, so that means ours can't be better. 🙄 WTF has Bolivia got to do with the UK? have you run out of any coherent arguments? |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2023 8:23:58 GMT
Yes, health care in Bolivia is terrible, so that means ours can't be better. 🙄 WTF has Bolivia got to do with the UK? have you run out of any coherent arguments? Well either you are terminally stupid or you understood my point and are wriggling. Why is a comparison with Scotland ok but not one with Bolivia. Your argument was specifically that Scotland is independent from the UK but does no better. Well so is Bolivia. My point is why is the situation in Scotland relevant to the shit mess our government has made in England. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 10, 2023 8:29:07 GMT
WTF has Bolivia got to do with the UK? have you run out of any coherent arguments? Well either you are terminally stupid or you understood my point and are wriggling. Why is a comparison with Scotland ok but not one with Bolivia. Your argument was specifically that Scotland is independent from the UK but does no better. Well so is Bolivia. My point is why is the situation in Scotland relevant to the shit mess our government has made in England. I'm surprised you need to ask that - it is quite obvious after all. Both England and Scotland have the same model of healthcare - but are run by parties from different parts of the political spectrum. The end result is that it doesn't matter who is in charge as their respective performances are almost identical. So you claim that simply changing the party in charge will make a heap of difference is about as valid and as sensible as your claim that under Labour the NHS was so good nobody needed insurance..  |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2023 9:06:14 GMT
Well either you are terminally stupid or you understood my point and are wriggling. Why is a comparison with Scotland ok but not one with Bolivia. Your argument was specifically that Scotland is independent from the UK but does no better. Well so is Bolivia. My point is why is the situation in Scotland relevant to the shit mess our government has made in England. I'm surprised you need to ask that - it is quite obvious after all. Both England and Scotland have the same model of healthcare - but are run by parties from different parts of the political spectrum. The end result is that it doesn't matter who is in charge as their respective performances are almost identical. So you claim that simply changing the party in charge will make a heap of difference is about as valid and as sensible as your claim that under Labour the NHS was so good nobody needed insurance.. I'm sure one of our Scottish representatives will pop along to point out the differences between Scotland's economy and ours along with many other differences. But that aside I concede your point, though I would point out that the SNP doing it badly does not mean Labour would be the same. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 10, 2023 9:36:48 GMT
Well either you are terminally stupid or you understood my point and are wriggling. Why is a comparison with Scotland ok but not one with Bolivia. Your argument was specifically that Scotland is independent from the UK but does no better. Well so is Bolivia. My point is why is the situation in Scotland relevant to the shit mess our government has made in England. I'm surprised you need to ask that - it is quite obvious after all. Both England and Scotland have the same model of healthcare - but are run by parties from different parts of the political spectrum. The end result is that it doesn't matter who is in charge as their respective performances are almost identical. So you claim that simply changing the party in charge will make a heap of difference is about as valid and as sensible as your claim that under Labour the NHS was so good nobody needed insurance.. And of course both countries have suffered from the international financial meltdown that made rubbish of previous contracts drawn up. A fact that is conveniently ignored as you persist in your need to shift the blame onto the "model of health care". (which is in need of serious improvement). I would be interested to know what attempts during the last 13 years of Tory government have been made to improve matters? |
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Post by wapentake on Jan 10, 2023 9:49:03 GMT
I'm surprised you need to ask that - it is quite obvious after all. Both England and Scotland have the same model of healthcare - but are run by parties from different parts of the political spectrum. The end result is that it doesn't matter who is in charge as their respective performances are almost identical. So you claim that simply changing the party in charge will make a heap of difference is about as valid and as sensible as your claim that under Labour the NHS was so good nobody needed insurance.. And of course both countries have suffered from the international financial meltdown that made rubbish of previous contracts drawn up. A fact that is conveniently ignored as you persist in your need to shift the blame onto the "model of health care". (which is in need of serious improvement). I would be interested to know what attempts during the last 13 years of Tory government have been made to improve matters? The problem is that various government have buggered the nhs based more on political ideology rather than the wellbeing of both the population they are supposed to serve and the institution itself. There’s little wrong with the model which is superior to that it replaced,other countries do it better and many worse but with the right ideas and cross party cooperation it could flourish and serve those funding it much better. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 10, 2023 11:40:33 GMT
I'm surprised you need to ask that - it is quite obvious after all. Both England and Scotland have the same model of healthcare - but are run by parties from different parts of the political spectrum. The end result is that it doesn't matter who is in charge as their respective performances are almost identical. So you claim that simply changing the party in charge will make a heap of difference is about as valid and as sensible as your claim that under Labour the NHS was so good nobody needed insurance.. I'm sure one of our Scottish representatives will pop along to point out the differences between Scotland's economy and ours along with many other differences. But that aside I concede your point, though I would point out that the SNP doing it badly does not mean Labour would be the same. I take it you missed the thread about how badly Labour are doing it in Wales? |
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