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Post by Bentley on Jan 3, 2023 20:53:01 GMT
The narrative of that GE was far more about Brexit than Corbyn. Corbyn didn't help himself by sitting on the fence though. Losing the election did for Corbyn more than Corbyn did for the election The electorate ignored the party of a second referendum and voted in spades for the party of a possible hard Brexit . The Brexit decision was taken in 2016 no one had the power or authority to take that decision away. The General Election was too general to be a vote on a single issue like Brexit. If Corbyn sat on the fence over Brexit then there was no opposition to Brexit, so it wasn't even in dispute. Yes but the Lib Dem’s promised another referendum if they gained power . This would of been a chance for the UK to realise its mistake and try to find a way to rejoin . It would at least give us a government ( or a powerful influence ) who was sympathetic to the EU and one that wanted a closer relationship, closer ties , leading to a softer landing at least. They bombed. Johnson’s government , who wanted to finish negotiations no matter what ..romped home . Labour sat on the fence and now sit on the sidelines scratching their arses. The voters view of Brexit had a lot to do with that ..ie there was not enough Europhile support and too much Eurosceptic support for anything other than a Tory landslide . |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 4, 2023 8:17:02 GMT
There were many concerns as regards plain sailing, what was not expected was that there would be a concerted campaign to shred the sails, jam the rudder, detach the spinnaker and un-splice the main brace as well as throw the charts overboard and destroy the chronometer and the compass. These things make for difficult plain sailing. I know it is not easy for people to help to make a success of something they do not believe in but the nature of democracy means you have to try and you should not be counterproductive. None of those, even if they had happened, would have been a problem for the people with the power and the authority. Those people failed because the whole issue was far more complicated than they seemed to imagine. All their whinging was just their way of distracting peoples attention from their failure to live up to their promises. Of course they were a problem just as Thatcher's wets were a problem, Heath's Eurosceptics were a problem and John Major's bastards were a problem and we know that 'plain sailing' for all did not happen. Even more so because the hands on the actual tiller after 2016 were those who had seen remain as the UK direction. At least Thatcher, Heath and Major were trying to direct something they implicitly believed in, May was always trying to Leave without actually leaving the EU. A tricky bit of juggling she could not undertake as people saw through her. It needed a driving force to get it through and the Tories could not manage to elect that driving force until Boris took over but in the end he flopped as he did not have the tenacity needed. So really the first three years wasted and then a degree of capitulation. So lessons in how to be a democrat should not be taken from active Remainers. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 4, 2023 11:34:40 GMT
None of those, even if they had happened, would have been a problem for the people with the power and the authority. Those people failed because the whole issue was far more complicated than they seemed to imagine. All their whinging was just their way of distracting peoples attention from their failure to live up to their promises. Of course they were a problem just as Thatcher's wets were a problem, Heath's Eurosceptics were a problem and John Major's bastards were a problem and we know that 'plain sailing' for all did not happen. Even more so because the hands on the actual tiller after 2016 were those who had seen remain as the UK direction. At least Thatcher, Heath and Major were trying to direct something they implicitly believed in, May was always trying to Leave without actually leaving the EU. A tricky bit of juggling she could not undertake as people saw through her. It needed a driving force to get it through and the Tories could not manage to elect that driving force until Boris took over but in the end he flopped as he did not have the tenacity needed. So really the first three years wasted and then a degree of capitulation. So lessons in how to be a democrat should not be taken from active Remainers. It is true that there were many who wanted a second referendum and many who believed we should not have left the EU, but the only way the decision could have been reversed would have been a second Referendum. IMO the referendum decision was there for years to come and it seemed that was the opinion of many including some who voted remain. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 4, 2023 11:56:25 GMT
Of course they were a problem just as Thatcher's wets were a problem, Heath's Eurosceptics were a problem and John Major's bastards were a problem and we know that 'plain sailing' for all did not happen. Even more so because the hands on the actual tiller after 2016 were those who had seen remain as the UK direction. At least Thatcher, Heath and Major were trying to direct something they implicitly believed in, May was always trying to Leave without actually leaving the EU. A tricky bit of juggling she could not undertake as people saw through her. It needed a driving force to get it through and the Tories could not manage to elect that driving force until Boris took over but in the end he flopped as he did not have the tenacity needed. So really the first three years wasted and then a degree of capitulation. So lessons in how to be a democrat should not be taken from active Remainers. It is true that there were many who wanted a second referendum and many who believed we should not have left the EU, but the only way the decision could have been reversed would have been a second Referendum. IMO the referendum decision was there for years to come and it seemed that was the opinion of many including some who voted remain. My point was they tried to thwart it or mitigate it or downgrade it to make it as close as possible to staying in. It was that that effectively scuppered a successful Brexit. Now they point to Brexit as a failure yet it was their shenanigans over the last six years that has led us to here and has finally destroyed any faith many of us had left in the political class as we currently elect them |
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