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Post by Toreador on Jan 2, 2023 19:41:23 GMT
Why do I get the feeling that had the referendum gone the way you wanted it would be a wondrous example of the democratic will of the people... Had Brexit lost the vote it would just have meant that the more honest and more sensible side would have won   Remember I know many Remnants who are not honest. Based on opinion polls during the lead-up, Remnants were cock-a-hoop that they looked like winning.....then came the result. |
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Post by Toreador on Jan 2, 2023 19:43:06 GMT
I can confirm that referendum fixed the fact we are no longer a member of the EU. The problem became that the miserable Remnant MPs tried everything to prevent our leaving and the Tory leadership had not a clue as how to get a better deal Hi toreador Yes but you'd have achieved that in a much more balanced way by voting in the Brexit party. Instead you pissed off nearly half the country When could I have done that? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2023 20:04:38 GMT
The European Coal & Steel Community eventualy became The Common Market, which then became the European Economic Community, which then became the European Union.
But from the very beginning, all of these versions of a unified Europe are based upon The Schuman Decleration, and it is that declaration, made in 1950, which has been carried forward from 1950 up to the present day, and was incorporated in every stage of an evolving European unity.
The Schuman Declaration states that "there should be ever increasing economic and political integration"
When Sir Edward Heath signed the Accession Agreement in 1972, the Schuman Declaration was part and parcel of that agreement.
Robert Schuman was the French Foreign Minister at the time when many European leaders proposed a United Europe, and Sir Winston Churchill was one of those leaders.
The idea was born out of a desire for no more wars, and for Europe to at last, come together, for the good of all of the people of Europe.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 2, 2023 20:07:52 GMT
The European Coal & Steel Community eventualy became The Common Market, which then became the European Economic Community, which then became the European Union. But from the very beginning, all of these versions of a unified Europe are based upon The Schuman Decleration, and it is that declaration, made in 1950, which has been carried forward from 1950 up to the present day, and was incorporated in every stage of an evolving European unity. The Schuman Declaration states that "there should be ever increasing economic and political integration" When Sir Edward Heath signed the Accession Agreement in 1972, the Schuman Declaration was part and parcel of that agreement. Robert Schuman was the French Foreign Minister at the time when many European leaders proposed a United Europe, and Sir Winston Churchill was one of those leaders. The idea was born out of a desire for no more wars, and for Europe to at last, come together, for the good of all of the people of Europe. No problem with that concept. The EU as manifested was certainly not meeting that aspiration. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 3, 2023 11:49:27 GMT
Oh wait a minute, we weren't allowed one were we. I think this is what remainiacs call democracy lol. I know I'm late into this but referendums are usually an unwise way of deciding anything. They are vulnerable to being hijacked by populists who will misrepresent the issue. They also could invoke the tyranny of the majority and reflect a moment in time when the population is twitchy and ill informed. There seems considerable evidence that many people who voted to leave, now regret it. We didn't hold a referendum on whether to negotiate a trade deal with Australia. This is the kind of thing that we vote governments in to decide. The 2016 was more a crude effort to keep the conservatives in power. David Cameron should have shown true leadership and faced down his rebels. He should have told them that if they wanted out of the EU, then they should resign and join a party that wanted to do so. Or form their own. But he didn't and the rest is a historic mess. I assume your answer is to simply sit back and do nothing as the UK is absorbed into a federal states of Europe and becomes just another EU state governed from Brussels. No thanks. Cameron allowed a long overdue referendum not because of his own rebels, but because of UKIP who had gone from 0.3% of the vote to 12.7% of the vote. The government could no longer ignore UKIP they were getting too big. Cameron's advisors were of the opinion the only way to get rid of UKIP was to hold a referendum, the country would vote to remain in the EU and support for UKIP would die. LOL. Fortunately it didn't quite go to plan. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 3, 2023 12:40:11 GMT
Had Brexit lost the vote it would just have meant that the more honest and more sensible side would have won Remember I know many Remnants who are not honest. Based on opinion polls during the lead-up, Remnants were cock-a-hoop that they looked like winning.....then came the result. I was very surprised at the result because I believed that the UK had too many self made underlying weaknesses which, regardless of whether or not Brexit was right for the country, if the people bothered to look at, left us in a weakened state not fit to go it alone at that time. I wasn't cock-a-hoop at expecting victory, I just thought that remaining was the wisest thing to do and thought that would be the result. Only time will tell whether Brexit was a good or bad decision. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 3, 2023 12:50:53 GMT
Had Brexit lost the vote it would just have meant that the more honest and more sensible side would have won From a proponent of Project Fear you have a bit of a cheek to talk about honesty.. I have never been a proponent of Project Fear. Project Fear is largely just a hiding place for those voting leave who refused to discus the possible pit falls of their voting. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 3, 2023 13:20:41 GMT
From a proponent of Project Fear you have a bit of a cheek to talk about honesty.. I have never been a proponent of Project Fear. Project Fear is largely just a hiding place for those voting leave who refused to discus the possible pit falls of their voting. I think there was more to it than that. Recognising pitfalls is not the same as placing dire warnings. If you vote leave; it will cost you £4300 average wage will drop £38 500,000 more unemployed etc etc. That is not to say that fear was not part of the leave camp but the positive aspects leave presented were turned into the bright sunny uplands of Brexit and countered as unicorns etc etc. I think Remain overplayed their hand and if we are out because of that I am relieved however it shows fear is both a vote winner and a vote loser. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 3, 2023 14:11:46 GMT
I have never been a proponent of Project Fear. Project Fear is largely just a hiding place for those voting leave who refused to discus the possible pit falls of their voting. I think there was more to it than that. Recognising pitfalls is not the same as placing dire warnings. If you vote leave; it will cost you £4300 average wage will drop £38 500,000 more unemployed etc etc. That is not to say that fear was not part of the leave camp but the positive aspects leave presented were turned into the bright sunny uplands of Brexit and countered as unicorns etc etc. I think Remain overplayed their hand and if we are out because of that I am relieved however it shows fear is both a vote winner and a vote loser. All of which were opinions from one single source IIRC, not a single fact or reliable suggested reason, and none of which acknowledged the weaknesses of the UK in 2016. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 3, 2023 14:41:51 GMT
I think there was more to it than that. Recognising pitfalls is not the same as placing dire warnings. If you vote leave; it will cost you £4300 average wage will drop £38 500,000 more unemployed etc etc. That is not to say that fear was not part of the leave camp but the positive aspects leave presented were turned into the bright sunny uplands of Brexit and countered as unicorns etc etc. I think Remain overplayed their hand and if we are out because of that I am relieved however it shows fear is both a vote winner and a vote loser. All of which were opinions from one single source IIRC, not a single fact or reliable suggested reason, and none of which acknowledged the weaknesses of the UK in 2016. The establishment were/are, pro EU. In an attempt to frighten a Eurosceptic electorate Cameron's government resorted to blatant lies. Just prior to the referendum Prime minister Cameron said if we voted to leave the EU the government may not be able to pay old age pensions, that was a direct threat to an anti EU demographic. And a lie. Chancellor Osborne said if we voted to leave the EU he would have to hold an emergency budget in which income tax and VAT would rise by as much as 3%. Another lie. Mark Carney the govenor of the Bank of England said leaving the EU would almost immediately be disastrous for the UK economy. He later had to appear before a parliamentary select committee to explain why his predictions of economic disaster were so wrong. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 3, 2023 14:42:18 GMT
I think there was more to it than that. Recognising pitfalls is not the same as placing dire warnings. If you vote leave; it will cost you £4300 average wage will drop £38 500,000 more unemployed etc etc. That is not to say that fear was not part of the leave camp but the positive aspects leave presented were turned into the bright sunny uplands of Brexit and countered as unicorns etc etc. I think Remain overplayed their hand and if we are out because of that I am relieved however it shows fear is both a vote winner and a vote loser. All of which were opinions from one single source IIRC, not a single fact or reliable suggested reason, and none of which acknowledged the weaknesses of the UK in 2016. I think they were more than single opinions and the MSM certainly treated them as mainstream news not rebutted at all by the Remain campaign |
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Post by jonksy on Jan 3, 2023 15:09:18 GMT
Had Brexit lost the vote it would just have meant that the more honest and more sensible side would have won . Based on opinion polls during the lead-up, Remnants were cock-a-hoop that they looked like winning.....then came the result. These were the ones who thought that most leave voters had popped their clogs...LOL And they would over-turn the will of the people in the last GE. Talk about bloody deluded. Still they are good for a laugh and fuck all else. |
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Post by jonksy on Jan 3, 2023 15:11:23 GMT
All of which were opinions from one single source IIRC, not a single fact or reliable suggested reason, and none of which acknowledged the weaknesses of the UK in 2016. Just prior to the referendum Prime minister Cameron said if we voted to leave the EU the government may not be able to pay old age pensions, that was a direct threat to an anti EU demographic. And a lie. Chancellor Osborne said if we voted to leave the EU he would have to hold an emergency budget in which income tax and VAT would rise by as much as 3%. Another lie. Mark Carney the govenor of the Bank of England said leaving the EU would almost immediately be disastrous for the UK economy. He later had to appear before a parliamentary select committee to explain why his predictions of economic disaster were so wrong. Don't frighten the snowflakes mate. They hate to be reminded on how wrong they got it....LOL LOL LOL |
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Post by see2 on Jan 3, 2023 16:27:23 GMT
All of which were opinions from one single source IIRC, not a single fact or reliable suggested reason, and none of which acknowledged the weaknesses of the UK in 2016. The establishment were/are, pro EU. In an attempt to frighten a Eurosceptic electorate Cameron's government resorted to blatant lies. Just prior to the referendum Prime minister Cameron said if we voted to leave the EU the government may not be able to pay old age pensions, that was a direct threat to an anti EU demographic. And a lie. Chancellor Osborne said if we voted to leave the EU he would have to hold an emergency budget in which income tax and VAT would rise by as much as 3%. Another lie. Mark Carney the govenor of the Bank of England said leaving the EU would almost immediately be disastrous for the UK economy. He later had to appear before a parliamentary select committee to explain why his predictions of economic disaster were so wrong. "may not", is not a lie. "an emergency budget". He could not know how good or bad Brexit could be. Mark Carney, offering his opinion. Who's to say these weren't honest concerns? After all No Leaver that I'm aware of would have forecast the mess we are in with the EU today. Back in 2016 it was a case of just leave and everything will be blue skies and plain sailing. |
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Post by see2 on Jan 3, 2023 16:29:31 GMT
The establishment were/are, pro EU. In an attempt to frighten a Eurosceptic electorate Cameron's government resorted to blatant lies.Just prior to the referendum Prime minister Cameron said if we voted to leave the EU the government may not be able to pay old age pensions, that was a direct threat to an anti EU demographic. And a lie. Chancellor Osborne said if we voted to leave the EU he would have to hold an emergency budget in which income tax and VAT would rise by as much as 3%. Another lie. Mark Carney the govenor of the Bank of England said leaving the EU would almost immediately be disastrous for the UK economy. He later had to appear before a parliamentary select committee to explain why his predictions of economic disaster were so wrong. Don't frighten the snowflakes mate. They hate to be reminded on how wrong they got it....LOL LOL LOL Talking to yourself in the mirror again after you slip our from behind your hiding place that is. |
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