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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 20:37:07 GMT
sorry not buying that at all Steve. You are right as far as you go about how anything can happen , as they say a week being a long time in politics , but wrong to use thatcher and the tories unpopularity in 1981 and compare it to starmer now. The political landscape is massively different , and of course, you once again cant think outside the two party box when you talk of having no love for starmer , but hating the tory alternative more. We are in a multi party system now Steve , like it or not , and both tory and labours vote share at its lowest ebb in modern history. You also discount the fact however much you dislike thatcher , she won the popular vote in 1979 taking nearly 4 million votes more than starmer did 45 years later , and she did that off the back of a much smaller uk electorate. Badenoch may improve the tories standing , im not sure , but I think Farage will hammer both tory and labour . While your analogy about anything can happen to starmers enemies over the course of the next 5 years rings true , it also works both ways. Thatcher had a core support of circa 13 million conservatives backing her over the course of her three electoral victories , I doubt nearly half a century later , starmer has a core labour support of even half that backing him. Unlike thatcher and blair , starmers problem is he has no real mandate to govern. I know our politics is much more multi-party than it was decades back, but at Westminster at least it is still somewhat constricted by the FPTP stitch up. Has it escaped you attention that I did not vote for either Labour or Tory? And voted Green instead? It is not illegitimate however to have the view that Labour might at least be a lesser evil than the Tories, regardless of whom else I might actually support and vote for. I can certainly remember you saying much the reverse, that the Tories are a lesser evil than Labour. None of which of course means that either of us actually support either. I stand by what I have said. Unlike you with labour , where we both know you are a former long term card carrying labour member and supporter , I have never once since my first election in 1992 voted for the conservatives. Not once. you have with labour though havent you? Despite that , I say again , if forced to choose between labour and tory , in my opinion , the tories are the lesser evil of the two. I say again , every time labour are in power , at council ,in my constituency , Holyrood or westminster , I and my family are worse off. Thatcher was a million times the politician starmer will ever be , so was blair , and unlike both , starmer has no real mandate to govern the uk and he has no real popular support. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 20:39:51 GMT
Yes and even fewer voted for any of the other parties. None of the above was the clear winner. Thats right. So labour got a third of the turnout , and should have got a third of the seats not two thirds ,which is the point many people are pissed off about. Indeed and under a system of proportional representation that is what would have happened. But that is not what we have at Westminster. And we are going to keep having Tory or Labour majorities with the support of only a minority of voters until that changes. I want that change. As probably do you. But until we see a way of getting it we are stuffed. The only hope for it would come from a hung parliament. Starmer being gifted such a massive majority by the efforts of Reform on top of so much anti-Tory tactical voting probably kills any possibility of that until the next election. If we genuinely want PR at Westminster, we need in large numbers to vote for neither Labour or the Tories but for anyone from any other party advocating PR. If we do this in large enough numbers it will begin to tell. Power to the people, not the sheeple. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 20:44:11 GMT
Thats right. So labour got a third of the turnout , and should have got a third of the seats not two thirds ,which is the point many people are pissed off about. Indeed and under a system of proportional representation that is what would have happened. But that is not what we have at Westminster. And we are going to keep having Tory or Labour majorities with the support of only a minority of voters until that changes. I want that change. As probably do you. But until we see a way of getting it we are stuffed. The only hope for it would come from a hung parliament. Starmer being gifted such a massive majority by the efforts of Reform on top of so much anti-Tory tactical voting probably kills any possibility of that until the next election. If we genuinely want PR at Westminster, we need in large numbers to vote for neither Labour or the Tories but for anyone from any other party advocating PR. If we do this in large enough numbers it will begin to tell. Power to the people, not the sheeple. im not saying that what we do have at Westminster. im simply pointing out repeatedly labour have no real mandate , they may have an anti democratic majority , they dont have the popular support holding that massive majority in place. The system , not popular support , unlike thatcher , or blair in 1997 , won the Election for starmer. Im simply pointing out normal politics of days gone by dont apply . |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 20:49:46 GMT
I know our politics is much more multi-party than it was decades back, but at Westminster at least it is still somewhat constricted by the FPTP stitch up. Has it escaped you attention that I did not vote for either Labour or Tory? And voted Green instead? It is not illegitimate however to have the view that Labour might at least be a lesser evil than the Tories, regardless of whom else I might actually support and vote for. I can certainly remember you saying much the reverse, that the Tories are a lesser evil than Labour. None of which of course means that either of us actually support either. I stand by what I have said. Unlike you with labour , where we both know you are a former long term card carrying labour member and supporter , I have never once since my first election in 1992 voted for the conservatives. Not once. you have with labour though havent you? Despite that , I say again , if forced to choose between labour and tory , in my opinion , the tories are the lesser evil of the two. I say again , every time labour are in power , at council ,in my constituency , Holyrood or westminster , I and my family are worse off. Thatcher was a million times the politician starmer will ever be , so was blair , and unlike both , starmer has no real mandate to govern the uk and he has no real popular support. You have just proven my point about whom you regard as the lesser evil, regardless of whomever you voted for. Yes I voted Labour but learned the error of my ways. In part it has been because I live in a constituency where only Labour or Tories stand a chance of winning. I was a card carrying member for less than 4 years which hardly constitutes long term in my view, and only then because I believed in the policy agenda reflected in the 2017 manifesto. I have given up on the party permanently now but do not viscerally hate it as you do. It has done some things I approve of so far. Mind you, you are not, nor have you ever been, nor will you ever be, my political mentor or master, so I do not have to justify myself to you beyond anything I have already chosen to say. If you want to hold by brief period in the party against me rather than engaging with me as me rather than as a party label, you are a lesser person than I thought you were. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 20:49:57 GMT
Thats right. So labour got a third of the turnout , and should have got a third of the seats not two thirds ,which is the point many people are pissed off about. The only hope for it would come from a hung parliament. Starmer being gifted such a massive majority by the efforts of Reform on top of so much anti-Tory tactical voting probably kills any possibility of that until the next election. starmer was gifted a massive majority because people stayed at home. Labour can only win when their adversaries voters stay at home. I highly doubt that will be likely come next election , when massive public anger should hopefully mobilise people to get labour out of power. Remember Steve , reform are eating up labour votes as well as tories. Starmer is pissing off the elderly , many of the young , the pro europeans , the left the right , small and medium businesses , etc etc etc. The man is a recruiting sergeant for reform uk , the snp , and many many other parties. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 20:52:35 GMT
Indeed and under a system of proportional representation that is what would have happened. But that is not what we have at Westminster. And we are going to keep having Tory or Labour majorities with the support of only a minority of voters until that changes. I want that change. As probably do you. But until we see a way of getting it we are stuffed. The only hope for it would come from a hung parliament. Starmer being gifted such a massive majority by the efforts of Reform on top of so much anti-Tory tactical voting probably kills any possibility of that until the next election. If we genuinely want PR at Westminster, we need in large numbers to vote for neither Labour or the Tories but for anyone from any other party advocating PR. If we do this in large enough numbers it will begin to tell. Power to the people, not the sheeple. im not saying that what we do have at Westminster. im simply pointing out repeatedly labour have no real mandate , they may have an anti democratic majority , they dont have the popular support holding that massive majority in place. The system , not popular support , unlike thatcher , or blair in 1997 , won the Election for starmer. Im simply pointing out normal politics of days gone by dont apply . No one has ever had a real mandate at Westminster, neither Tory nor Labour, based upon vote share. Your bias is evident in the fact that you appear only to see this as a valid criticism when Labour wins an illegitimate majority. I do not ever recall you making the same criticisms of the Tories. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 20:55:46 GMT
The only hope for it would come from a hung parliament. Starmer being gifted such a massive majority by the efforts of Reform on top of so much anti-Tory tactical voting probably kills any possibility of that until the next election. starmer was gifted a massive majority because people stayed at home. Labour can only win when their adversaries voters stay at home. I highly doubt that will be likely come next election , when massive public anger should hopefully mobilise people to get labour out of power. Remember Steve , reform are eating up labour votes as well as tories. Starmer is pissing off the elderly , many of the young , the pro europeans , the left the right , small and medium businesses , etc etc etc. The man is a recruiting sergeant for reform uk , the snp , and many many other parties. Actually it is evident that most of the votes Reform have eaten up are elderly Tory voters. Even this very forum here is a reflection of that. They probably take a few from Labour but far less. Labour is far more likely to lose support to the Lib Dems or Greens, or SNP up where you are. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 3, 2024 20:55:59 GMT
20% of people voted Labour and out of those the vast majority gave their main reason as getting rid of the Tories. Yes and even fewer voted for any of the other parties. None of the above was the clear winner. And yes, Labour's huge majority and the large increase in Lib Dem MPs were both born of the same phenomenon. Tactical voting against the Tories by voting for whoever was best placed to defeat them. There was relatively little positive support for Labour - or the Lib Dems for that matter - just a desire to be rid of the Tories at any cost. Of course things were made even worse for the Tories by Reform doing so much damage to what was left of their vote. In many places they took enough votes away from the Tories to deny them victory without gaining enough to win themselves, gifting seats to Labour that the Tories might otherwise have held. My own seat of Plymouth Moorview is a typical example where the combined vote of the Tories and Reform - who came second and third respectively - was comfortably larger than that of the Labour winner. Were it not for Reform. Johnny Mercer the sitting Tory would most likely have won. This pattern was repeated all over the place. Labour thus largely has Reform to thank for the massive size of it's majority. Were it not for them, the Tories would have held many more seats and Labour's majority would have been far smaller. When you also factor in anti-SNP tactical voting in Scotland which I suspect is a one off, the cards couldn't have been stacked more in Starmer's favour if he had dealt them himself. That's a funny coincidence, but I clearly recall a YT video on Plymouth in relation to the election which was imminent. What was apparent was all the school kids, as in your 12 - 16 group we diehard fans of Reform, as if it were the new cool rebel group to be seen supporting. You may have noticed each generation has its favourite social media site. The older group would be Facebook, where it then went to Instagram and now it is Tiktok, and this is where all these kids are sending Reform videos to their friends. It was quite amazing the level of interest in politics these kids had. My generation we felt politicians were full of shit. We were far more into creating our own entertainment and avoiding the things the establishment provided. Oh and the other thing I picked up which I think was Plymouth on another video was the harbour. They say it wreaks of sewage. Now imagine if you were on your way to a polling booth and you got a whiff of that. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 20:56:46 GMT
I stand by what I have said. Unlike you with labour , where we both know you are a former long term card carrying labour member and supporter , I have never once since my first election in 1992 voted for the conservatives. Not once. you have with labour though havent you? Despite that , I say again , if forced to choose between labour and tory , in my opinion , the tories are the lesser evil of the two. I say again , every time labour are in power , at council ,in my constituency , Holyrood or westminster , I and my family are worse off. Thatcher was a million times the politician starmer will ever be , so was blair , and unlike both , starmer has no real mandate to govern the uk and he has no real popular support. You have just proven my point about whom you regard as the lesser evil, regardless of whomever you voted for. Yes I voted Labour but learned the error of my ways. In part it has been because I live in a constituency where only Labour or Tories stand a chance of winning. I was a card carrying member for less than 4 years which hardly constitutes long term in my view, and only then because I believed in the policy agenda reflected in the 2017 manifesto. I have given up on the party permanently now but do not viscerally hate it as you do. It has done some things I approve of so far. Mind you, you are not, nor have you ever been, nor will you ever be, my political mentor or master, so I do not have to justify myself to you beyond anything I have already chosen to say. If you want to hold by brief period in the party against me rather than engaging with me as me rather than as a party label, you are a lesser person than I thought you were. how have I proven your point? You are a labour supporter , or shall I say old socialist labour , im not a tory supporter , but can unequivocally say I regard them as the lesser of two evils. how does that prove your point? You seem to be arguing im just as biased for the tories as you are for labour , with the exception that ive never voted for , never mind been a member of the conservative unlike you with labour? I fail to see the equivalence.? Im a scot indy supporter....remember? im standing outside your de facto English two party box , and offering an outside opinion. You on the other hand are standing inside armed with your anti tory bias. Labour are a fucking disaster . We only need to look at Wales after a quarter of a century of devolution where labour have been in charge to see you dont need to be anti labour to see how bad they are at governing. I said the same to you when your mate corbyn was in charge , albeit I regard him as a better leader , more honest , if still a poor politician , than starmer. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 21:01:22 GMT
Yes and even fewer voted for any of the other parties. None of the above was the clear winner. And yes, Labour's huge majority and the large increase in Lib Dem MPs were both born of the same phenomenon. Tactical voting against the Tories by voting for whoever was best placed to defeat them. There was relatively little positive support for Labour - or the Lib Dems for that matter - just a desire to be rid of the Tories at any cost. Of course things were made even worse for the Tories by Reform doing so much damage to what was left of their vote. In many places they took enough votes away from the Tories to deny them victory without gaining enough to win themselves, gifting seats to Labour that the Tories might otherwise have held. My own seat of Plymouth Moorview is a typical example where the combined vote of the Tories and Reform - who came second and third respectively - was comfortably larger than that of the Labour winner. Were it not for Reform. Johnny Mercer the sitting Tory would most likely have won. This pattern was repeated all over the place. Labour thus largely has Reform to thank for the massive size of it's majority. Were it not for them, the Tories would have held many more seats and Labour's majority would have been far smaller. When you also factor in anti-SNP tactical voting in Scotland which I suspect is a one off, the cards couldn't have been stacked more in Starmer's favour if he had dealt them himself. That's a funny coincidence, but I clearly recall a YT video on Plymouth in relation to the election which was imminent. What was apparent was all the school kids, as in your 12 - 16 group we diehard fans of Reform, as if it were the new cool rebel group to be seen supporting. You may have noticed each generation has its favourite social media site. The older group would be Facebook, where it then went to Instagram and now it is Tiktok, and this is where all these kids are sending Reform videos to their friends. It was quite amazing the level of interest in politics these kids had. My generation we felt politicians were full of shit. We were far more into creating our own entertainment and avoiding the things the establishment provided. Oh and the other thing I picked up which I think was Plymouth on another video was the harbour. They say it wreaks of sewage. Now imagine if you were on your way to a polling booth and you got a whiff of that. There has been little evidence of this being reflected in voting patterns and it is probably algorithms feeding you stuff it knows you like. If I went by everything algorithms fed me I'd be convinced most young people were socialists. But I tend not to pay too much heed to such things to avoid confirmation bias. If voting patterns begin to relect what you are saying to any appreciable extent I will take more notice. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 21:04:27 GMT
im not saying that what we do have at Westminster. im simply pointing out repeatedly labour have no real mandate , they may have an anti democratic majority , they dont have the popular support holding that massive majority in place. The system , not popular support , unlike thatcher , or blair in 1997 , won the Election for starmer. Im simply pointing out normal politics of days gone by dont apply . No one has ever had a real mandate at Westminster, neither Tory nor Labour, based upon vote share. Your bias is evident in the fact that you appear only to see this as a valid criticism when Labour wins an illegitimate majority. I do not ever recall you making the same criticisms of the Tories. the standard benchmark has normally been 40% of the vote based on a much higher turnout. Starmer took less votes than corbyn did in 2019 , yet won a landslide. Lowest turnout in history , and couldnt even hit ten million voters . While we both agree the fptp system is out of date , even you , in your rose tinted labour glasses cant argue the system isnt now stretched to breaking point. We are a laughing stock , and have the cheek to lecture others on democracy , when labour get two thirds seats on a third of votes. labour have no mandate. Thats clear as we move further into their term in government. When 8/10 didnt vote for you , you know you have real problems . when did the tories get two thirds of seats off the back of a third of votes on such a low turnout? Cameron took a million more votes than starmer did in 2010 , and had to go into coalition to govern. even may and Johnson took 4 to nearly 5 million votes respectively more than starmer did in their various electoral wins. A disgrace to the name of democracy. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Nov 3, 2024 21:07:36 GMT
That's a funny coincidence, but I clearly recall a YT video on Plymouth in relation to the election which was imminent. What was apparent was all the school kids, as in your 12 - 16 group we diehard fans of Reform, as if it were the new cool rebel group to be seen supporting. You may have noticed each generation has its favourite social media site. The older group would be Facebook, where it then went to Instagram and now it is Tiktok, and this is where all these kids are sending Reform videos to their friends. It was quite amazing the level of interest in politics these kids had. My generation we felt politicians were full of shit. We were far more into creating our own entertainment and avoiding the things the establishment provided. Oh and the other thing I picked up which I think was Plymouth on another video was the harbour. They say it wreaks of sewage. Now imagine if you were on your way to a polling booth and you got a whiff of that. There has been little evidence of this being reflected in voting patterns and it is probably algorithms feeding you stuff it knows you like. If I went by everything algorithms fed me I'd be convinced most young people were socialists. But I tend not to pay too much heed to such things to avoid confirmation bias. If voting patterns begin to relect what you are saying to any appreciable extent I will take more notice. This is probably why I got two on the same town. I do not only watch so-called right wing videos. I watch every kind of video except the really stupid ones. I don't think the video was right wing either. It was just random interviews on the street, so i managed to gauge what people thought. The sewerage came up a great deal. |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 21:09:43 GMT
starmer was gifted a massive majority because people stayed at home. Labour can only win when their adversaries voters stay at home. I highly doubt that will be likely come next election , when massive public anger should hopefully mobilise people to get labour out of power. Remember Steve , reform are eating up labour votes as well as tories. Starmer is pissing off the elderly , many of the young , the pro europeans , the left the right , small and medium businesses , etc etc etc. The man is a recruiting sergeant for reform uk , the snp , and many many other parties. Actually it is evident that most of the votes Reform have eaten up are elderly Tory voters. Even this very forum here is a reflection of that. They probably take a few from Labour but far less. Labour is far more likely to lose support to the Lib Dems or Greens, or SNP up where you are. I cant speak for england , but reform are taking a fair amount of support from younger unionists in places like Ayrshire in scotland. You appear to have forgotten the damage ukip and brexit party did to labours red wall areas. Didnt 62% of labours English constituencies vote for Farage and his party in 2015 , among them many younger voters? and this `article from earlier in the year disagrees with your stereotypical views... www.dazeddigital.com/life-culture/article/63008/1/how-reform-uk-wooed-gen-z-men-britain-nigel-farage-general-election |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2024 21:13:56 GMT
You have just proven my point about whom you regard as the lesser evil, regardless of whomever you voted for. Yes I voted Labour but learned the error of my ways. In part it has been because I live in a constituency where only Labour or Tories stand a chance of winning. I was a card carrying member for less than 4 years which hardly constitutes long term in my view, and only then because I believed in the policy agenda reflected in the 2017 manifesto. I have given up on the party permanently now but do not viscerally hate it as you do. It has done some things I approve of so far. Mind you, you are not, nor have you ever been, nor will you ever be, my political mentor or master, so I do not have to justify myself to you beyond anything I have already chosen to say. If you want to hold by brief period in the party against me rather than engaging with me as me rather than as a party label, you are a lesser person than I thought you were. how have I proven your point? You are a labour supporter , or shall I say old socialist labour , im not a tory supporter , but can unequivocally say I regard them as the lesser of two evils. how does that prove your point? You seem to be arguing im just as biased for the tories as you are for labour , with the exception that ive never voted for , never mind been a member of the conservative unlike you with labour? I fail to see the equivalence.? Im a scot indy supporter....remember? im standing outside your de facto English two party box , and offering an outside opinion. You on the other hand are standing inside armed with your anti tory bias. Labour are a fucking disaster . We only need to look at Wales after a quarter of a century of devolution where labour have been in charge to see you dont need to be anti labour to see how bad they are at governing. I said the same to you when your mate corbyn was in charge , albeit I regard him as a better leader , more honest , if still a poor politician , than starmer. I have been a Labour supporter and member in the past when it better reflected my values yes. But I am not now. If you wish to hold the past against me that's your call. But the point I was making which you have proven by your own admission of it is that whilst out of the two I still view Labour as the lesser evil, you have always out of the two viewed the Tories as the lesser evil. Whether or not you ever voted for them is irrelevant to that fact. I think the Tories are a lesser evil than the BNP. The fact that I never voted Tory is irrelevant to that. Are you going to accept this simple logic or are you going to do as you have done so often in the past and just twist and distort, bring in strategic diversions, invent new forms of attack whilst dodging the point, attributing falsehoods to me and all the rest? Because if so I am not playing |
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Post by thomas on Nov 3, 2024 21:15:25 GMT
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