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Post by Orac on Sept 25, 2024 8:46:50 GMT
Don't be daft - the entire world only produced 6 billions tons of CO2 in 1950. India has places were it is dangerously high, but Indians don't give a shit. Amazing how the MSM has never ever mentioned India as the bad man of pollution.
I don't run across many advocates for India being the society we should model ourselves on, also insisting we trash our industrial base in order to prevent C02 emissions
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Post by Dan Dare on Sept 25, 2024 9:06:03 GMT
It's now back to just being s little higher than European levels. India has places were it is dangerously high, but Indians don't give a shit. Amazing how the MSM has never ever mentioned India as the bad man of pollution.
Overall air pollution (including particulates not just GHG) is far higher in China than in the West. Not quite as bad as India but it's certainly up there.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 10:15:52 GMT
Have you any stats on that per Capita claim and how it is measured, as a rough estimate the UK has produced approx 40 billion tonnes over the years. China has exceeded British production since 1958 and closely matched during the early 20th century, we currently produce less than 1 million tonnes China produces almost 4 billion tonnes. At that rate if they have not overtaken us they may do so very soon. I have not checked the accuracy of that claim, but it is what the Chinese claim. Well they say Britain had its industrial revolution and they are having theirs now so it is unfair to put out all of those fumes and then kick the ladder away. I do recall seeing the data on coal production. It was on the classic exponential as you would expect since economies are exponential, but it's on its way to turning a corner. They have a date pencilled in for peak coal and another date for net zero. This net zero was originally set for 2060, but now they reckon they might well get there before then and be the first major industrialised economy to reach the target. This is mainly due to technical advances in green energy and the massive increase in investment, especially in the last couple of years where new solar and wind installations have rocketed up. It just goes to show how hard it is to predict the future, but the Chinese government often exceeds its performance targets. As the property sector slumped, so investors switched to investing in green energy instead. It was the per capita claim specifically as that is a possibly contentious measure. Britain did indeed have its industrial revolution and probably did not exceed approx 6 tonnes per Capita of the population at the time. Both China and the UK have been using coal for some form of heating for about 2000 years. So there are many problems with that measure as for about 1700 years China was probably using far more coal than Britain but the per Capita amounts were equal. The 30s saw the Chinese coal production boom. Overall China would have to produce about 20 times more coal than Britain overall to meet the per Capita equality based on current populations yet is that a fair measure and in terms of the 'climate emergency' it is a ridiculous measure. China received the benefit of a portion of the British coal production and arguably still does by way of foreign aid yet takes no culpability for any of that production which agreed was Imperialist but trade orientated.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 25, 2024 10:28:08 GMT
Don't be daft - the entire world only produced 6 billions tons of CO2 in 1950. It was thick smog. It's because we used a lot of coal back then. Coal is one of the dirtiest along with burning wood. CO2 is a harmless gas, but in coal and wood fumes there are hundreds of noxious chemicals.
Also look at the buildings around East Manchester. They may have knocked them down now but they were all black. London you can see it too. The white stone of historic buildings is destroyed.
This is why we really do need electric cars. The cities will have clean air and everything will look clean as well. The government in China recently was very happy with itself as the change in pollution levels in their cities has been dramatic. It's now back to just being s little higher than European levels. India has places were it is dangerously high, but Indians don't give a shit. Amazing how the MSM has never ever mentioned India as the bad man of pollution.
Where are you getting this nonsense from - China is one of the most polluted countries on the planet and is in no way anywhere near European levels.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 25, 2024 10:45:57 GMT
India has places were it is dangerously high, but Indians don't give a shit. Amazing how the MSM has never ever mentioned India as the bad man of pollution.
I don't run across many advocates for India being the society we should model ourselves on, also insisting we trash our industrial base in order to prevent C02 emissions Yes but it is inevitable it will happen. At least it is on current trends regarding where our immigrants come from. Indian standards on matters like health are abysmal. Life is very cheap in their minds, like the complete opposite of how Britain developed morally under the Victorians. Like our food standards are very good compared to most of the world, even the US. This is why I keep on saying Chinese are far more compatible to our own way of thinking. They have standards and the government over there really cares for the health and wellbeing of its people, so to clean up pollution is something they are kind of excited about. It's a point to boast to the West, hey look at what we have achieved.
The way they think politically is we are a communist country, which means the state takes care of its people, makes sure they are fit and healthy, well educated and happy, and then that is the input labour force to their economy which they run under capitalist principles. They believe you can't have capitalism without communism. Like if everyone were ill then you can see the factories would never make a profit. So it is this that is the motivating factor. India as a country though is not really a country at all. It's a mass of different tribes, all with their own traditions, languages and ways of living. It's like Babylon, as described in the bible!
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 25, 2024 11:11:02 GMT
It's now back to just being s little higher than European levels. India has places were it is dangerously high, but Indians don't give a shit. Amazing how the MSM has never ever mentioned India as the bad man of pollution.
Overall air pollution (including particulates not just GHG) is far higher in China than in the West. Not quite as bad as India but it's certainly up there.
Yes I've been using that for a bit, but I just realised something today which was staring me in the face and now it sounds a bit obvious to mention but as you made that post, the Brits were just starting their day, where in China they were just finishing. This is why we can't just look at it and do a like for like. What their news was saying was there were dramatic improvements in the highly populated city areas which run along the coast, like Shanghai. There is often higher pollution as you go inland and up to the north where the population is far less. I think the reason for this is the rare earth production. I've heard it from the Chinese people themselves that working in that sector and region is very hazardous to health. The thing is their rare earths supply the whole world. What is wrong with India is the level of the peaks, as per well into the danger area.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 25, 2024 11:18:40 GMT
I have not checked the accuracy of that claim, but it is what the Chinese claim. Well they say Britain had its industrial revolution and they are having theirs now so it is unfair to put out all of those fumes and then kick the ladder away. I do recall seeing the data on coal production. It was on the classic exponential as you would expect since economies are exponential, but it's on its way to turning a corner. They have a date pencilled in for peak coal and another date for net zero. This net zero was originally set for 2060, but now they reckon they might well get there before then and be the first major industrialised economy to reach the target. This is mainly due to technical advances in green energy and the massive increase in investment, especially in the last couple of years where new solar and wind installations have rocketed up. It just goes to show how hard it is to predict the future, but the Chinese government often exceeds its performance targets. As the property sector slumped, so investors switched to investing in green energy instead. It was the per capita claim specifically as that is a possibly contentious measure. Britain did indeed have its industrial revolution and probably did not exceed approx 6 tonnes per Capita of the population at the time. Both China and the UK have been using coal for some form of heating for about 2000 years. So there are many problems with that measure as for about 1700 years China was probably using far more coal than Britain but the per Capita amounts were equal. The 30s saw the Chinese coal production boom. Overall China would have to produce about 20 times more coal than Britain overall to meet the per Capita equality based on current populations yet is that a fair measure and in terms of the 'climate emergency' it is a ridiculous measure. China received the benefit of a portion of the British coal production and arguably still does by way of foreign aid yet takes no culpability for any of that production which agreed was Imperialist but trade orientated. I don't really care much to be honest. it was just a stick the west used to beat China with and China can produce its own stats as well. The reduction in pollution is very real though. Everyone notices the difference. You don't need the BBC to tell you how much smog is in your own city, lol.
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Post by Vinny on Sept 25, 2024 13:20:53 GMT
Nobody wants Chinese EVs Baron. We want reliable cars capable of long range travel.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 25, 2024 13:36:02 GMT
There’s the rub. We all want reliable cars with long ranges …which are ICE cars . We will all be forced into EVs because ICE cars will be unavailable and any decent EV costs a fortune . So we will be left with Chinese cheap and cheerful EVs that will be the EV version of Trabants .
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 25, 2024 14:05:08 GMT
Are you aware of the sequence of events re EV cars manufacture in China?
It's to do with Elon Musk, who gets talked about a lot. He goes right back to the dot com bubble and was involved in Ebay/Paypal. Many of his associates at the time are very rich and are involved in social media sites. I thought Musk was part of the US PLC, such as those like Jobs, Gates, Soros, the owners of Amazon, Facebook, Google etc. It turns out he is autistic, and many think he is one of those autistic geniuses. It's predicted by the end of the decade his investments will be worth about one trillion dollars, as in just over 4x what they are now. I'd agree that qualifies him as genius. No one gave him the money. He built it up by taking the profits he made in earlier ventures and reinvesting.
Now where he departs from the programme is that he does not invest in the usual stuff of rich Americans but goes for investments to do with engineering, like cars, satellites and space rockets. America, by way of large faceless institutions like pension funds and banks has been steadily deindustrialising so a new car brand would never raise the finance. Musk though pays for this stuff in cash. Next up he departs from the programme to an even greater extent where the political direction is to decouple from China and set up offshore manufacturing in Vietnam and India, the latter being where Apple obediently went.
This is where things got interesting because I have since discovered that Musk has essentially the same view as I do on China. I never knew that at the time, but anyway, he defied the orders and decided to set up some large factories in China. Naturally the CPC were watching and for someone that rich and that nationality to say, no mate, I like the Chinese, well they rolled out the red carpet for him, and he became the first company to ever set up there who could do so without the need to partner with a local firm. It was a gift from the top, since he had stuck his neck out. China is very much liek that. You do a good turn to them and you can guarantee they will come back and say, thanks mate, here we can help you. It's a kind of civility the US government no longer practices. Musk is smart remember.
Anyway, this is where the butterfly effect really takes off. Musk's cars were developed with a lot of intelligent R and D. Musk loves technology and clearly employed the best US engineers to create them. They are rated as highly reliable, even compared to old hands in the game like the Germans. Musk got to work tooling up for production in China, and stipulated that his suppliers supply components to very high specification. This would have likely involved purchase of high spec machine tools and all that, but as they got it all sorted out so they created the parts to pass Tesla QC then of course the manufacturers and other brands started looking in and this created a huge jump in quality across China. Now all cars were supplied with top spec parts. Now the Western brands are totally fucked. You see their last weapon agaisnt China development was to claim they had the quality. Recall Tesla were achieving better quality-> China is now beating Europeans at the quality game. They are cheaper and higher spec. The is no trade-off. You may like to speculate whether hte CPC saw this would happen, or was it just a quirk of fate.
The outcome basically is European car sales in China are falling fast and Teslas are bucking the trend. Elon Musk is a hero in China. They love him, and see him as a proper revolutionary. You see the Chinese love their tech and he is the tech king, and he is working with them, not agaisnt them. Just as I said Britain should do, but Musk got there first. The early bird catches the worm and he has his. You can blame him for the rise of China's car industry. Yes they were shit 20 years ago. Now they are not.
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Post by patman post on Sept 25, 2024 18:14:02 GMT
It’s misleading stating how much more pollution is created by other countries without taking into account that much of what the UK consumes outsources its pollution to where its produced…
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 19:14:08 GMT
It’s misleading stating how much more pollution is created by other countries without taking into account that much of what the UK consumes outsources its pollution to where its produced… Which of course makes net zero a farce, all we are doing is exporting our emissions, not achieving net zero. And of course when we produced things in he past they were our emissions but really belonged to the some of the rest of the world who imported all sorts of things from us.
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Post by patman post on Sept 25, 2024 20:32:20 GMT
It’s misleading stating how much more pollution is created by other countries without taking into account that much of what the UK consumes outsources its pollution to where its produced… Which of course makes net zero a farce, all we are doing is exporting our emissions, not achieving net zero. And of course when we produced things in he past they were our emissions but really belonged to the some of the rest of the world who imported all sorts of things from us. Like not importing from countries with harsh employment practices, the UK could restrict what it imports from polluters, no…?
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 25, 2024 21:05:56 GMT
It’s misleading stating how much more pollution is created by other countries without taking into account that much of what the UK consumes outsources its pollution to where its produced… Which of course makes net zero a farce, all we are doing is exporting our emissions, not achieving net zero. And of course when we produced things in he past they were our emissions but really belonged to the some of the rest of the world who imported all sorts of things from us. It's a cloud with a silver lining which has created another cloud. It really doesn't matter what they say. What matters is tangible assets. You need energy to build them. The main reason Germany's economy did well was because of cheap Russian energy. Energy security was a mighty problem. We got screwed something rotten when the US created an oil price hike in the 70s. Why do you think our industry fell to pieces and they all came out on strike? Limitless supplies of free energy generated within our shores without reliance on external supply is a dream come true.
The thing is our nation has gone completely stupid. Chinese are true capitalist and very smart. They see we want green technology and we complain bitterly about the cost, so what they do is sell it to us for cheap. However China soon realised this was the perfect solution for their needs and they worry about energy security far more than we do as the US is always attacking them. The reality is we were all hot air and full of pride, where in China they have the tenacity to solve technical problems and they are hard workers. They made it economically viable. We could only get our rip-off green tech bought by force. Now none of what i have just said has any bearing on whether global warming is a thing or not. Even if it were completely false, it still makes economic sense now, but did not before the Chinese got going. Now the silver lining that created the cloud was the fact it has put the European car industry out of business, which is a strange turn of events since it was kingpin argument of why we should have remained in the single market, i.e. to take advantage of the economy of scale of the EU for building cars. That's by the bye now.We need to think of another industry we can exploit, like one that is not big now, but will be in the future and get in fast and grab the patents.
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Post by blueorange on Sept 25, 2024 21:36:49 GMT
UK has given up on the national interest and strategic thinking. EVs target is a pure example. Our remaining car industry is luxurious high margin manufactories. Bentleys, Astons Martins and Range Rovers. If we restrict them to making just EVs by 2030, practically we will kill the remaining car brands. But if you think one step ahead and look at where the battery manufactures are located (China), who controls the mineral extraction (China, Russia). Then a more clear picture comes to life. We are giving up on our strategic competitiveness and become more reliant on technologies and components controlled by our adversaries.
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