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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2024 16:25:35 GMT
Let’s face it . It’s only the cult of net zero ‘ let them eat cake cos my EV is perfect ‘ brigade that is still trying to flog EVs as a viable / comparable alternative to ICE vehicles. It’s quite clear that EVs as they are today are nowhere near as convenient and safe as ICE vehicles. Our future choice is a Hobson choice . An EV or nothing .
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 23, 2024 16:38:14 GMT
ICE vehicles will still need taxed and dutied fuel, just as EVs will need electricity that 85% of owners can get from home — some on special financial arrangements. Charging by road use seems a fair way of charging. Some insurance companies are including that as a factor in their charging. Just because a few roadside chargers aren’t working doesn’t set the scene for home chargers, charging stations and other publicly available outlets… I have family on the south coast, it's a 400 mile 6 hour return trip, and I don't need to refuel en-route because I have a diesel car. In an EV, a 400 mile trip would likely be 10 hours, not 6 hours. Progress? I think not.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 16:44:44 GMT
The main problem European car makers face is The Chinese market is different from the western one. In China, there are large numbers of people look for a cheap and cheerful step up from a bicycle. The western market is somewhat different and the segment of people looking for something similar in the west is very small. The mistake the western car makers made was treating the two markets the same. Yes that's true. I was reading a review of an electric motorbike made by a Western firm. They wanted 12 grand for it, and it was nothing special, like the power of an old 250cc. The Chinese thought it was an insult and were saying who has that kind of money and that what we want is a motorbike so the people can afford it. It was basically a trendy rip-off. Similar for Huawei phones. They were not out to make the poshest most expensive phone of the conspicuous consumption economics much like Apple do, and just got a reputation for good, cheap and reliable/does the job fine.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2024 16:50:06 GMT
China is going to be the main supplier of EVs to countries that jump off the net zero cliff.
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Post by patman post on Sept 23, 2024 17:27:16 GMT
ICE vehicles will still need taxed and dutied fuel, just as EVs will need electricity that 85% of owners can get from home — some on special financial arrangements. Charging by road use seems a fair way of charging. Some insurance companies are including that as a factor in their charging. Just because a few roadside chargers aren’t working doesn’t set the scene for home chargers, charging stations and other publicly available outlets… I have family on the south coast, it's a 400 mile 6 hour return trip, and I don't need to refuel en-route because I have a diesel car. In an EV, a 400 mile trip would likely be 10 hours, not 6 hours. Progress? I think not. So you’ve chosen to stick with diesel. Fine. We do London to Paris about five or six times a year. It also can be a six and a half hour drive, but we usually have a break about a couple of hours down from Calais. If we needed a 30 min charge to 80%, it wouldn’t break the bank or keep us from travelling — autoroute refuelling with essence or gazole is also expensive and wouldn’t make our stop shorter. We could also charge while waiting at Folkestone, but don’t need to. Travelling on to Burgundy hasn’t proved a problem — there’s a private charger we use at relatives in Paris. The same in Burgundy. There seem to be plenty of fast chargers should we need them. I admit I was a bit apprehensive when we did our first long trip, but no concerns since. I’ve enjoyed my diesel and petrol cars. Now I’m enjoying an EV. I’ll probably enjoy the next development too…
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 23, 2024 21:40:23 GMT
So why do the Chinese feel the need to restrict the supply of ICE cars to their population to force the uptake of EV's?. Are the Chinese stupid? Pollution. A few years back in Shanghai they built this huge futuristic tower with the view to renting it out as office space. It was a super luxury building and yet the demand was not there and it remained half empty. Shanghai had become so polluted that facemasks were needed. Ten years ago you regularly saw people walking around like there were some sort of pandemic. Now supposing you were a very rich company and wanted the best offices. This is why the buyers stopped coming. These fumes kill you in the end. The lead causes brain damage. The fine particles are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. Yes the pollution is bad but you are still not allowing a free market - EV sales are only doing well because you will not sell ICE cars. I can see the argument for only allowing EV's - that doesn't make EV's popular with the consumer.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 22:15:20 GMT
Pollution. A few years back in Shanghai they built this huge futuristic tower with the view to renting it out as office space. It was a super luxury building and yet the demand was not there and it remained half empty. Shanghai had become so polluted that facemasks were needed. Ten years ago you regularly saw people walking around like there were some sort of pandemic. Now supposing you were a very rich company and wanted the best offices. This is why the buyers stopped coming. These fumes kill you in the end. The lead causes brain damage. The fine particles are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. Yes the pollution is bad but you are still not allowing a free market - EV sales are only doing well because you will not sell ICE cars. I can see the argument for only allowing EV's - that doesn't make EV's popular with the consumer. In China only about one in three people in a main city managed to get a permit to drive. When EVs came along they said anyone who gets one gets automatic entitlement to a permit. I think there might have been some sort of subsidy, but aside form that I can't really see China's government acting any differently to our own. If you go back 10-15 years, do you recall every BBC and Channel 4 bitch was poking their fingers at China calling them the world's biggest polluter. Well of course their government did not take too kindly to the hostility, but they did say at the time they would become more green, and they not only kept to their word, but are the world's largest green energy manufacturers. The figure is their solar power is half the price of what Western firms can produce it at, so now from lagging coal burning people, they are making a big change. You'd think the Western leaders would pat them on the back, but now they are bitching about subsidy and "oversupply"! Never happy, are they?
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 22:18:23 GMT
China is going to be the main supplier of EVs to countries that jump off the net zero cliff. China will supply the developing countries that don't have the legacy infrastructure. It's important for energy security reasons too. China worries the Western bitches might cut off their supply of oil from the Middle East.
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Post by Bentley on Sept 23, 2024 22:21:22 GMT
China is going to be the main supplier of EVs to countries that jump off the net zero cliff. China will supply the developing countries that don't have the legacy infrastructure. It's important for energy security reasons too. China worries the Western bitches might cut off their supply of oil from the Middle East. Not if they don’t want them . Europe is a hot bed of the net zero cult . They will be buying them soon.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 23, 2024 22:43:39 GMT
China will supply the developing countries that don't have the legacy infrastructure. It's important for energy security reasons too. China worries the Western bitches might cut off their supply of oil from the Middle East. Not if they don’t want them . Europe is a hot bed of the net zero cult . They will be buying them soon. They have a huge plant out in Mexico. Meanwhile they have decided to stop supplying the US. It's weird. I never expected 20 years ago the US would become the new soviet union together with muggins UK and a few other. Also the US tells Japan what to do, but Japan says it would rather work with China. The market the US has control over, as in the G7 and some others may shrink. China can build up developing countries and supply them with the technology. They have the raw materials and the labour.
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 24, 2024 6:33:13 GMT
The trouble with electric cars (especially those powered by batteries) revolves around energy density. The energy density of oil is huge. ENough energy to take a car 400 miles or more can be put in a tank in minutes. The same amount of electric energy would take hours to put in a battery - except by using fast chargers that are few and far between and would require vast and expensive upgrading of the national grid.
That was all true 100 years ago when ICE cars won out over electric battery powered cars - and it's still true now. Except for a few niche users (who drive low miles and can charge up at home) BEVs are basically useless.
That's why their sales are flatlining or declining. The market is already saturated as far as BEVs are concerned.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 24, 2024 7:00:55 GMT
Good article about the realties (and costs) of owning an EV for those without home charging. It highlights that relying on public infrastructure charging is a nightmare and the only people that EV's really suit are the 50% of the population that have home charging.
It also made the point that this is not purely a UK problem.
A cautionary survey from the Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research and the Energy Policy Institute at the University of Chicago found 47 per cent of US respondents think they’d be unlikely they’d go electric, while a recent McKinsey & Co survey found 46 per cent of current EV owners in the US would go back to a combustion engine at their next switch. Most respondents in both surveys cited charging as their main beef.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 24, 2024 7:12:23 GMT
Pollution. A few years back in Shanghai they built this huge futuristic tower with the view to renting it out as office space. It was a super luxury building and yet the demand was not there and it remained half empty. Shanghai had become so polluted that facemasks were needed. Ten years ago you regularly saw people walking around like there were some sort of pandemic. Now supposing you were a very rich company and wanted the best offices. This is why the buyers stopped coming. These fumes kill you in the end. The lead causes brain damage. The fine particles are able to cross the blood-brain barrier. Yes the pollution is bad but you are still not allowing a free market - EV sales are only doing well because you will not sell ICE cars. I can see the argument for only allowing EV's - that doesn't make EV's popular with the consumer. In China's case I can understand. You get rewarded from the people for driving electric because you save the people's health, so it is a two way exchange. If it were not for health reasons of other people I would agree subsidies would be bad.
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Post by jonksy on Sept 24, 2024 7:25:14 GMT
Yes the pollution is bad but you are still not allowing a free market - EV sales are only doing well because you will not sell ICE cars. I can see the argument for only allowing EV's - that doesn't make EV's popular with the consumer. In China's case I can understand. You get rewarded from the people for driving electric because you save the people's health, so it is a two way exchange. If it were not for health reasons of other people I would agree subsidies would be bad. FFS Baron is that the same China that this year alone have put another 47 fired power stations on line? Kinda defeats the object does it not?
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Sept 24, 2024 7:45:35 GMT
In China's case I can understand. You get rewarded from the people for driving electric because you save the people's health, so it is a two way exchange. If it were not for health reasons of other people I would agree subsidies would be bad. FFS Baron is that the same China that this year alone have put another 47 fired power stations on line? Kinda defeats the object does it not? Yes but China would say it has a lot of coal, it is always on the point of not having enough energy and good olde Blighty has burnt a lot more coal per capita than China will ever do. We started hundreds of years back.
That's not to say they are being belligerent. They have it all pencilled in where peak coal will occur. They do plan to phase it out eventually, but it is a kind of stop-gap measure. Also they are probably telling them to clean up the emissions in the new plants.
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