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Post by sandypine on Sept 24, 2024 18:15:47 GMT
Of course the term exists it is used in the modern day setting as a form of abuse and as a means to denigrate and where possible delegitimise parties and individuals seeking a democratic mandate. It is a name is supposed to conjure up from history Nazis, authoritarianism, racism and genocide and is clearly supposed to create fear in those who may consider voting for those so labelled. All who so label others seem to either 'choose' or refuse to define how they know that the X party, whoever they may be, are far right but wish everyone to rest assured 'they know' as they not only have political nous but are honest men. It is a very superior attitude that does not deliver the goods and gradually people are seeing through it. My politics are to the left in a National/ethnic setting which makes me for many, who seem to hark back to the Comintern, of the right. Suffice to say we cannot save the world nor should we try but we can save the UK in the same way Germans are trying to save Germany, Hungarians trying to save Hungary and Italians trying to save Italy. The democratic mandate still exists, it is often used as a WARNING because some very very nasty outcomes have spewed out of far-right controlled situations. You know that and I know it. I suggest you stop avoiding that reality. Well that is difficult to show, the Nazis rode to power on many leftist policies as you pointed out as a means to gain votes. I understand that fully my issue is at what point does a party, a person, a group become that danger. How does one recognise the danger. So far it seems to be you saying "take my word for it I know along with a lot of other people with whom I agree". There must be some inkling at the beginning for you, or anyone, to say "aha here be the dragons of far rightism". The phrase slips off the tongue so easily for you but no one has any idea how you recognise these 'rightists' other than you saying they are. Taking your word for it is not really a way forward and you would never accept anyone's word if someone said " this group is not far right, trust me I know".
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Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2024 7:44:39 GMT
The democratic mandate still exists, it is often used as a WARNING because some very very nasty outcomes have spewed out of far-right controlled situations. You know that and I know it. I suggest you stop avoiding that reality. Well that is difficult to show, the Nazis rode to power on many leftist policies as you pointed out as a means to gain votes. I understand that fully my issue is at what point does a party, a person, a group become that danger. How does one recognise the danger. So far it seems to be you saying "take my word for it I know along with a lot of other people with whom I agree". There must be some inkling at the beginning for you, or anyone, to say "aha here be the dragons of far rightism". The phrase slips off the tongue so easily for you but no one has any idea how you recognise these 'rightists' other than you saying they are. Taking your word for it is not really a way forward and you would never accept anyone's word if someone said " this group is not far right, trust me I know". Exactly the point I've been making, glad to see that you acknowledge it. History shows the dangers of Far-Right parties once in power, that's when it shows that opening the path for far-right politicians was and is a big mistake.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 8:31:27 GMT
Well that is difficult to show, the Nazis rode to power on many leftist policies as you pointed out as a means to gain votes. I understand that fully my issue is at what point does a party, a person, a group become that danger. How does one recognise the danger. So far it seems to be you saying "take my word for it I know along with a lot of other people with whom I agree". There must be some inkling at the beginning for you, or anyone, to say "aha here be the dragons of far rightism". The phrase slips off the tongue so easily for you but no one has any idea how you recognise these 'rightists' other than you saying they are. Taking your word for it is not really a way forward and you would never accept anyone's word if someone said " this group is not far right, trust me I know". Exactly the point I've been making, glad to see that you acknowledge it. History shows the dangers of Far-Right parties once in power, that's when it shows that opening the path for far-right politicians was and is a big mistake. Yes you keep making that point and no one has really disputed it. The question is how does one recognise a far right party before they get to power so one can avoid giving them a vote? You have kindly told us that you think there are rightists and far rightists at work and you pinpointed the AfD in Germany as an example of a dangerous group but can only say it is because some Germans say they are far right. I cannot avoid a far right group if I am unable to determine who they are and riding to power on leftish policies is what the Labour party has done many times. Should I have avoided them as potentially far right? How can I, or anyone, avoid dangerous far right politicians if the only evidence presented that they are far right is the say so of various opposing politicians and other political opponents. That is not how democracy works it is a process of debate and discussion about what each stands for and WHY it is understood what each stands for. If one cannot understand, primarily because it is not explained, why a party is far right and a danger then how can one avoid it unless one takes the word of one's 'political betters' and that is always an equally dangerous road to take and be avoided like the plague.
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Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2024 15:59:20 GMT
Exactly the point I've been making, glad to see that you acknowledge it. History shows the dangers of Far-Right parties once in power, that's when it shows that opening the path for far-right politicians was and is a big mistake. Yes you keep making that point and no one has really disputed it. The question is how does one recognise a far right party before they get to power so one can avoid giving them a vote? You have kindly told us that you think there are rightists and far rightists at work and you pinpointed the AfD in Germany as an example of a dangerous group but can only say it is because some Germans say they are far right. I cannot avoid a far right group if I am unable to determine who they are and riding to power on leftish policies is what the Labour party has done many times. Should I have avoided them as potentially far right? How can I, or anyone, avoid dangerous far right politicians if the only evidence presented that they are far right is the say so of various opposing politicians and other political opponents. That is not how democracy works it is a process of debate and discussion about what each stands for and WHY it is understood what each stands for. If one cannot understand, primarily because it is not explained, why a party is far right and a danger then how can one avoid it unless one takes the word of one's 'political betters' and that is always an equally dangerous road to take and be avoided like the plague. My point is few seem to understand the dangers before the Far-right are elected into power. The signs are there to see, otherwise they would not be designated Far-Right by those expected to know. As for the AfG I don't see them objecting to being referred to as far-right, the only comment I have heard from one of them was "its about time we were given the opportunity to have our say". 'Have their say' yes, give them real power? Absolutely no.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 19:02:41 GMT
Yes you keep making that point and no one has really disputed it. The question is how does one recognise a far right party before they get to power so one can avoid giving them a vote? You have kindly told us that you think there are rightists and far rightists at work and you pinpointed the AfD in Germany as an example of a dangerous group but can only say it is because some Germans say they are far right. I cannot avoid a far right group if I am unable to determine who they are and riding to power on leftish policies is what the Labour party has done many times. Should I have avoided them as potentially far right? How can I, or anyone, avoid dangerous far right politicians if the only evidence presented that they are far right is the say so of various opposing politicians and other political opponents. That is not how democracy works it is a process of debate and discussion about what each stands for and WHY it is understood what each stands for. If one cannot understand, primarily because it is not explained, why a party is far right and a danger then how can one avoid it unless one takes the word of one's 'political betters' and that is always an equally dangerous road to take and be avoided like the plague. My point is few seem to understand the dangers before the Far-right are elected into power. The signs are there to see, otherwise they would not be designated Far-Right by those expected to know. As for the AfG I don't see them objecting to being referred to as far-right, the only comment I have heard from one of them was "its about time we were given the opportunity to have our say". 'Have their say' yes, give them real power? Absolutely no. The point is they are being designated as far right by political opponents who are not necessarily 'in the know' but more likely to be politically biased. What are the signs that are there to see? The AfD have said they are not right wing or left wing. The giving of power is solely in the hands of the people which is where it should be and in that respect the people are allowed all the information available and if no one can say to the people look these are the policies of X party and they are far right so they are dangerous why should the people listen to warnings based on some who say 'we say it is so therefore it is so'. No way to win an election or to stop someone else winning it.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 25, 2024 20:49:42 GMT
My point is few seem to understand the dangers before the Far-right are elected into power. The signs are there to see... And yet, ten pages on, you are still unable to say what they are. ...otherwise they would not be designated Far-Right by those expected to know... And who are those expected to know and how are they expected to know? Again, you have been unable to define either. As for the AfG I don't see them objecting to being referred to as far-right, the only comment I have heard from one of them was "its about time we were given the opportunity to have our say". 'Have their say' yes, give them real power? Absolutely no. As for the Afd, it's not your shout. And just as well since you clearly don't understand the issues that you assure the rest of us are such an issue.
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Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2024 21:18:39 GMT
My point is few seem to understand the dangers before the Far-right are elected into power. The signs are there to see, otherwise they would not be designated Far-Right by those expected to know. As for the AfG I don't see them objecting to being referred to as far-right, the only comment I have heard from one of them was "its about time we were given the opportunity to have our say". 'Have their say' yes, give them real power? Absolutely no. The point is they are being designated as far right by political opponents who are not necessarily 'in the know' but more likely to be politically biased. What are the signs that are there to see? The AfD have said they are not right wing or left wing. The giving of power is solely in the hands of the people which is where it should be and in that respect the people are allowed all the information available and if no one can say to the people look these are the policies of X party and they are far right so they are dangerous why should the people listen to warnings based on some who say 'we say it is so therefore it is so'. No way to win an election or to stop someone else winning it. Try this from the BBC. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68931170
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Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2024 21:30:23 GMT
My point is few seem to understand the dangers before the Far-right are elected into power. The signs are there to see... And yet, ten pages on, you are still unable to say what they are....otherwise they would not be designated Far-Right by those expected to know... And who are those expected to know and how are they expected to know? Again, you have been unable to define either. As for the AfG I don't see them objecting to being referred to as far-right, the only comment I have heard from one of them was "its about time we were given the opportunity to have our say". 'Have their say' yes, give them real power? Absolutely no. As for the Afd, it's not your shout. And just as well since you clearly don't understand the issues that you assure the rest of us are such an issue. 1, A lie, typical of Rightist deception. I choose (repeated for the umpteenth time) not to comment on what they are, I prefer to allow history to expose the Far right for the dangerous area of politics they represent. 2. See my post that refers to the BBC, (above). 3. It is not the issues the 'Alternative for Germany' party hide behind that are the problem, the problem arises when the Far-Right politicians take power.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 25, 2024 21:46:52 GMT
The point is they are being designated as far right by political opponents who are not necessarily 'in the know' but more likely to be politically biased. What are the signs that are there to see? The AfD have said they are not right wing or left wing. The giving of power is solely in the hands of the people which is where it should be and in that respect the people are allowed all the information available and if no one can say to the people look these are the policies of X party and they are far right so they are dangerous why should the people listen to warnings based on some who say 'we say it is so therefore it is so'. No way to win an election or to stop someone else winning it. Try this from the BBC. www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68931170Well it is the BBC but I will run with it. It seems to be searching out some undesirables who support the party as opposed to telling us what the party actually says and what policies make them far right. The Labour party has some pretty undesirable supporters especially amongst the Free Palestine groups but we do not think for one moment that they are representative of the Labour party or in any position to control policy or seize power. In fact some pretty extreme people left the party this election but they were strong supporters before and often local councillors etc. Most parties are a 'broad church' and once you become a party dealing with major issues like migration and Nationalism then there will always be extreme elements but that does not mean it is the party. Why is it only on the right that people are tarred with the same brush as the worst. Have the worst no democratic rights? Once again there is no indication of policy and why they are far right. As regards the Great Replacement conspiracy theory who cares who is planning it what we have to look at is what is actually happening and only a blind person would say that replacement, whether intended or not, is not underway in Western Europe.
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Post by see2 on Sept 25, 2024 22:09:40 GMT
Well it is the BBC but I will run with it. It seems to be searching out some undesirables who support the party as opposed to telling us what the party actually says and what policies make them far right. The Labour party has some pretty undesirable supporters especially amongst the Free Palestine groups but we do not think for one moment that they are representative of the Labour party or in any position to control policy or seize power. In fact some pretty extreme people left the party this election but they were strong supporters before and often local councillors etc. Most parties are a 'broad church' and once you become a party dealing with major issues like migration and Nationalism then there will always be extreme elements but that does not mean it is the party. Why is it only on the right that people are tarred with the same brush as the worst. Have the worst no democratic rights? Once again there is no indication of policy and why they are far right. As regards the Great Replacement conspiracy theory who cares who is planning it what we have to look at is what is actually happening and only a blind person would say that replacement, whether intended or not, is not underway in Western Europe. Your opening comment gives you away, and places the rest of your post as the usual excuse making garbage you inevitably come up with. Once again in your naivety, you ignore history. Be a man, and admit you are a Rightist.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 26, 2024 0:31:42 GMT
And yet, ten pages on, you are still unable to say what they are.And who are those expected to know and how are they expected to know? Again, you have been unable to define either. As for the Afd, it's not your shout. And just as well since you clearly don't understand the issues that you assure the rest of us are such an issue. 1, A lie, typical of Rightist deception. I choose (repeated for the umpteenth time) not to comment on what they are, I prefer to allow history to expose the Far right for the dangerous area of politics they represent. 2. See my post that refers to the BBC, (above). 3. It is not the issues the 'Alternative for Germany' party hide behind that are the problem, the problem arises when the Far-Right politicians take power. And yet again, you have failed to substantiate your assertions and have fallen back on entirely subjective ad-hom. Once again: Because you say so is not definitive. Because someone you agree with says so is also not definitive. Indeed, the entire panoply of leftist thought can agree that someone or something is "Far right" but without objective definition, that does not make it so. All you've proved, after dozens of threads and hundreds of pages, is that you are still wholly unable to define "Far right". Proof, as I've said all along, that your so-called "Far right" doesn't actually exist. Except in your head, of course.
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Post by buccaneer on Sept 26, 2024 1:27:20 GMT
What makes the AfG right wing, what polices do they have, what actions have they taken that brands them as RW and far right wing? EDIT I will help They say they are democrats, want Swiss type referenda, separate powers(executive, legislative and judicial), limit the influence of political parties, realign party funding and Constitutional law, free election of candidates, restrict career politicians, direct election of president, curtail lobbyism, punish wastage of tax revenues, reform MPs pension scheme, restor power of nation state, strengthen law and criminal justice, protect German borders, strengthen German armed forces, reinstate compulsory military service, retain minimum wages, end financial discrimination of families, make work pay, promote traditional family, larger families instead of mass immigration, German as predominant culture instead of Multiculturalism, freedom of religion within the law, tolerate criticism of Islam, no full body veiling in public spaces, no irregulat migration via asylum laws, repatriation for those not entitled to stay, reconsider free movement in EU, control immigration from Non-eu countries to moderate levels, create transparency in costs of immigration, reduce bureaucracy, improve consumer protection, retain unrestricted use of cash, scrap renewable energy act, stop uncontrolled expansion of wind turbines... plenty more, for the life of me I cannot find a far right policy. Some even seem fairly left leaning. , Do you have the same blank area of your mind when it comes to the far left? Do you really expect extremists to expose all their intentions? And how they would go about imposing their intentions? If so then you appear to be quite naive. Far-Right governments are extremist and elitist, they can and do lead to authoritarian governments that strongly divide a nation. You have seen the antics of the far-right would be Dictator Trump (Jan 6fh) in America. Don't think it couldn't happen in Europe. Seeing as Sandypine has given you a rundown of what looks like the AfD manifesto policies which look rather sensible to me, perhaps you can garner evidence that this party are far-right extremists hiding their agenda behind the words Sandypine posted? Otherwise, we can strike that off as unsubstantiated, bias opinion from you.
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Post by buccaneer on Sept 26, 2024 1:39:52 GMT
If they were not, they would not be accepted as being far-right. But the Germans do accept them as a far-right. So if you have an argument it is with the German people, not with me. I read at one point that Germany previously, before the AfD, had what was referred to as a "Moderate right wing party". Oh, so they're "Far right" because they're "Accepted" as being "Far right" by people who consider themselves not far right. That's just meaningless subjectivity. It's also a copout. See2 initially inferred his reasoning of them being 'far-right' was based on his own thinking and understanding of the AfD. When pushed, he couldn't explain why that is, and passed it off to the 'German people' to answer the question. In other words he's a sheep.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 26, 2024 7:25:12 GMT
Well it is the BBC but I will run with it. It seems to be searching out some undesirables who support the party as opposed to telling us what the party actually says and what policies make them far right. The Labour party has some pretty undesirable supporters especially amongst the Free Palestine groups but we do not think for one moment that they are representative of the Labour party or in any position to control policy or seize power. In fact some pretty extreme people left the party this election but they were strong supporters before and often local councillors etc. Most parties are a 'broad church' and once you become a party dealing with major issues like migration and Nationalism then there will always be extreme elements but that does not mean it is the party. Why is it only on the right that people are tarred with the same brush as the worst. Have the worst no democratic rights? Once again there is no indication of policy and why they are far right. As regards the Great Replacement conspiracy theory who cares who is planning it what we have to look at is what is actually happening and only a blind person would say that replacement, whether intended or not, is not underway in Western Europe. Your opening comment gives you away, and places the rest of your post as the usual excuse making garbage you inevitably come up with. Once again in your naivety, you ignore history. Be a man, and admit you are a Rightist. Not so, my opening comment was as regards the basis of the 'investigation' and the link to 'prove' that any group were far right based on a BBC investigation. This is the same BBC than managed to ignore accusations of widespread rape of young vulnerable girls and acted to see those making such accusations in court as racists and hate mongers in a similar investigation; the same BBC that cannot call a terrorist a terrorist and produce mealy mouthed totally inaccurate reasons as to why not, that any half interested person could put their fingers on as rampant hypocrisy; the same BBC who are supposed to 'assess' scientific and political reports as they are produced and rarely assess any that indicate badness or extremism from the right or that climate change is going to end the world shortly; the same BBC that overloaded stories of Brexit disaster imminent before and after the referendum and loaded all discussion with Remain advocates. I did however give you the good grace of reading it and assessing what it said and made comments accordingly I was hoping for the good grace to be reciprocated, in vain it seems People have lost trust in the BBC based on experience over the last twenty to thirty years and some of the above are reasons why. Many people have been on the ground at various events and observed that editorially how the BBC present a situation was often at odds with personal experience. So a BBC investigation risks not being an unbiased investigation it starts as an investigation find a specific circumstance and report that alone. As I said if I searched specifically for a Muslim extremist supporter in the Labour party I would probably find it but that is not an investigation of the Labour party and I would be disingenuous if I said it was.
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Post by see2 on Sept 26, 2024 7:53:54 GMT
Do you have the same blank area of your mind when it comes to the far left? Do you really expect extremists to expose all their intentions? And how they would go about imposing their intentions? If so then you appear to be quite naive. Far-Right governments are extremist and elitist, they can and do lead to authoritarian governments that strongly divide a nation. You have seen the antics of the far-right would be Dictator Trump (Jan 6fh) in America. Don't think it couldn't happen in Europe. Seeing as Sandypine has given you a rundown of what looks like the AfD manifesto policies which look rather sensible to me, perhaps you can garner evidence that this party are far-right extremists hiding their agenda behind the words Sandypine posted? Otherwise, we can strike that off as unsubstantiated, bias opinion from you. See the explanations in the BBC comments posted above. Your dishonest attack on me changes nothing about the dangers of rightists in power as in Galtieri, Pinochet, Franco and Hitler. History exposes the extreme naivety of posters like yourself, Sandypine and SIM all of whom, judging by their posts, appear to be Rightist defending the move to the Right trend.
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